tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post7780505087251235966..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: BannedFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-1997786371692810232010-04-26T12:30:56.655-04:002010-04-26T12:30:56.655-04:00FWIW, the AngloCatholic blog is saying that there ...FWIW, the AngloCatholic blog is saying that there is no "secret deal" in the background but just communications with the CDF about practical considerations for the implementation of the Apostolic Constitution.<br /><br />Also there was a veiled reference to bishop(s) that have been concecrated since the 2007 catechism signing and their responsibility to the path that has been taken.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05218434053331256206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-82539683352260994462010-04-22T22:57:45.212-04:002010-04-22T22:57:45.212-04:00Michael,
Re - Anglican Lutherans - So it is. Mea ...Michael,<br /><br />Re - Anglican Lutherans - So it is. <i>Mea Culpa</i>. More power to that body, I suppose. Carry on.RSC+https://www.blogger.com/profile/00639369749327986414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-3480194445157567472010-04-22T18:12:56.869-04:002010-04-22T18:12:56.869-04:00Shaughn wrote, "Recently someone spoke about ...Shaughn wrote, "Recently someone spoke about the 'spirit' of the Vatican documents. Paul would be perplexed at such a usage. The 'spirit' of Text A does not ever equal the opposite of the letter of Text A."<br /><br />Indeed, prior to 1970, one would have thought not. However, for decades after that date, in Roman Catholic circles in this country (the USA) and, for all I know, abroad as well, all one heard was how "the 'spirit' of Vatican II" authorized, nay, even demanded, innovations and changes that the Council's own texts never countenanced.<br /><br />In fact, in the case of the uninspiring and inaccurate ICEL English version of the Novus Ordo Missae (and, I am told, similarly some other vernacular translations into other languages), that flew directly in the face of Vat. II's direction that the Mass is and must remain in Latin.<br /><br />So, rational as Shaughn's position is, for the past 40 years it has not been what one actually encounters on the R.C. street. Now, "the spirit of X." appears to be an accepted Roman hermeneutic for contradicting whatever the text of X. really says. Thus one can hardly blame the TAC representatives for falling right in line with four decades of their new masters' implicit example.<br /><br />John A. Hollister+ <br />"apendbu"John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-76730536955638970432010-04-22T18:12:56.868-04:002010-04-22T18:12:56.868-04:00Excellent post, Saughn!
But I am wondering, don&...Excellent post, Saughn! <br /><br />But I am wondering, don't the ACA bishops or whoever know anything about reverse psychology? Both of my grandfathers told me that I wasn't allowed to read certain books and it was years before i discovered that they really intended for me to read them. It worked on my own children as well which makes me wonder if they might not actually want all of their clergy to actually be reading this blog. I certainly want all the clergy in the Continuum to read it. Maybe we could get Archbishop Haverland to ban it as well. It is certainly worth thinking about.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-8691099940050461752010-04-22T17:31:05.677-04:002010-04-22T17:31:05.677-04:00Oh, "obviously." The information from my...Oh, "obviously." The information from my sources has not a thing to do with it.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-2187406642270414812010-04-22T16:40:01.319-04:002010-04-22T16:40:01.319-04:00@Shaughn,
The reference to the "Anglo-Luther...@Shaughn,<br /><br />The reference to the "Anglo-Luther Catholic Church" that you saw in a comment on The Anglo-Catholic should have read "Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church", and refers to an actual (albeit small) Lutheran jurisdiction, which has appealed to the Holy See for unity with the Roman Catholic Church.<br /><br />BTW, never heard anything about the blog being banned. Guess I'll find out... midnight call from the bishop... ahh... how does he know what site I'm on... he's in my head... ahh... save yourselves from the evil TAC purple carde... Save me...<br /><br />(You guys have obviously been drinking too much coffee.)Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04603402422216696381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-62409368284466289212010-04-22T15:47:16.110-04:002010-04-22T15:47:16.110-04:00Two points about what Shaughn has said:
1. Such a...Two points about what Shaughn has said:<br /><br />1. <i>Such an arrangement may well be the case Over There.</i><br /><br />It is the case Over There. Mr. Campbell is Abp. Hepworth's main man, his chief contact, in the U.S. This gives him a strange sort of power over the ACA bishops. The ACA website recently asserted that it was the only official website of their church; but Campbell's blog is far more reflective of Hepworth.<br /><br />2. <i>Again, the sensible thing to do is look for official documents from the Vatican and to accept them at face value.</i><br /><br />Exactly. That is what we have done with Anglicanorum Coetibus, while the TAC/ACA spin has been to add promises to its contents that contradict what it really says.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-79583790081383990352010-04-22T13:44:20.182-04:002010-04-22T13:44:20.182-04:00I'm finding the whole mess Over There to be ex...I'm finding the whole mess Over There to be extremely disheartening for a number of reasons.<br /><br />First, the repeated attacks on Archbishop Haverland -- referring to him as a Pope, referring to St. Stephens as "The One Holy Anglican-Catholic Church of Athens, Georgia," is absurd. Anyone who has ever met the Archbishop or read anything he's written with any seriousness knows this is so. Another fellow refers to the ACC as the "Anglo-Luther Catholic Church," which is also comically misinformed. Again, one need only spend about five minutes speaking with the Archbishop on Luther to know that this is so.<br /><br />Second, they have this peculiar idea that this blog is, somehow, officially connected to the ACC, and that the positions of its authors represent the ACC's official positions. I don't think Frs. Hart, Kirby, or Nalls believe this. And I'm even more certain Bp. Robinson, whose addition contributions here are most excellent, believes it. Such an arrangement may well be the case Over There. I haven't a clue whether that is the case, and I could hardly care less.<br /><br />The third point relates, in a way, to the second. Some folks have a hard time disassociating official documents from unofficial opinions. For the same reason that the writers here are not the official representatives of this or that body, the various folks opining about the Ordinariate are not, either. We here have responsibly stuck to the texts themselves, which is the sensible thing to do until the Vatican releases more documents. As I've said many, many times -- the ball is entirely in their court, and I pretty much trust them at face value.<br /><br />Recently someone spoke about the "spirit" of the Vatican documents. Paul would be perplexed at such a usage. The "spirit" of Text A does not ever equal the opposite of the letter of Text A. So, for example, the Vatican documents place very clear terms about the manner in which folks are to hop over (to whom I say, again, "Godspeed!"). Anything which plainly contradicts those terms must be some kind of a special arrangement.<br /><br />Again, the sensible thing to do is look for official documents from the Vatican and to accept them at face value. This act, I think, is the faithful thing to do, and it is what we, for our part, have striven to do.RSC+https://www.blogger.com/profile/00639369749327986414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-55937272248674161772010-04-22T00:53:40.448-04:002010-04-22T00:53:40.448-04:00Fr. Wells wrote, "'"How can you ban ...Fr. Wells wrote, "'"How can you ban a blog? ....' Ever heard of King Canute?"<br /><br />The same thought had occurred to me but, while I am sure Fr. Wells knows the true story, that good King's actual behavior is too often forgotten. In fact, he is one of two of my favorite historical figures who are routinely tagged with supporting precisely that which they were protesting against. (The other is Douglas Corrigan.)<br /><br />Canute's famous act of ordering the tide to halt was intended as a lesson to his sycophantic courtiers, who had suggested he was so powerful he could do anything his whim devised. So it wasn't the King who made a fool of himself that day.<br /><br />And so, as Fr. Wells implied, banning a blog is about as useful an endeavor as is ordering the tide to halt. (In the Midwest farm country where I grew up, they had another way of expressing that same idea, only it involved male breeding stock of the porcine persuason.)<br /><br />John A. Hollister+<br />"ourial"John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-84219360570637508482010-04-22T00:51:09.579-04:002010-04-22T00:51:09.579-04:00Back in January I preached a sermon on authentic C...Back in January I preached a sermon on authentic Church unity and subsequently posted it on my blog. Because I used the dreaded "A" word (absorption) to make a point, and that not even in a perjorative or sarcastic way which was clear from the context, I was subsequently contacted via e-mail and phone and told to remove the post. My point was simply that those taking up the offer in Anglicanorum Coetibus ought to be running toward a goal (becoming Anglican Use Roman Catholics, which means full acceptance of all that the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches) and not away from present difficulties within Anglicanism itself. Is that really such an unreasonable train of thought? <br /><br />Unfortunately, there seems to be no place for honest discourse within the TAC right now, and that is a terrible tragedy. Those of us, clergy and lay, who are 'left behind' (if we are graced with the fortitude to do so) will have quite a mess to clean up once the dust settles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-22170889684864320412010-04-21T22:30:21.664-04:002010-04-21T22:30:21.664-04:00"How can you ban a blog? This sounds like boo..."How can you ban a blog? This sounds like book burning type stuff."<br /><br />Ever heard of King Canute?<br /><br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-80969365100364617032010-04-21T20:59:15.457-04:002010-04-21T20:59:15.457-04:00Amen and amen. It may be taken for a typo, but ult...Amen and amen. It may be taken for a typo, but ultimately I wouldn't be really unhappy if it came to pass. But our very good Father Hart is probably smart enough to know what a curse it might possibly be. I am sure that Archbishop Haverland does. But he has probably forgiven those who thrust it upon him.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-89449972127360616682010-04-21T19:45:11.289-04:002010-04-21T19:45:11.289-04:00Canon Tallis wrote:
I thought I hinted enough tha...Canon Tallis wrote:<br /><br /><i>I thought I hinted enough that it wasn't Archbishop Hart...</i><br /><br />Of course this was a typo, and he meant to say Archbishop Haverland. Or, I resist the attempt to put a curse on me.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-89096941368475914822010-04-21T19:13:16.035-04:002010-04-21T19:13:16.035-04:00The stray thought crosses my mind that trying to &...The stray thought crosses my mind that trying to "ban" a blog is a remarkably silly exercise. I would love to ban the mosquitoes that cluster around my back door, but somehow they keep slipping into the house.<br /><br />And how does one enforce one's wishes? I can't slap even one of those mosquitoes unless she flies near enough for me to get to her.<br /><br />Similarly, any reader whose ecclesial overseers have "banned" this or any other forum could only be detected in evading that ban if (s)he posted a comment, and where the Blogspot software allows comments to be anonymous, that is all that is required to evade censorship.<br /><br />Then, of course, there is the ultimate question: If no one from a particular body is reading this blog, how does any member of that body know that another has cheated on the ban? Hmmm? Isn't that a bit like the old Soviet Union, where many books and magazines were banned (from being read by ordinary folks) but members of the "Nomenklatura" could read them so as to be able to detect their dangerous thoughts???<br /><br />John A. Hollister+<br />"rhumpe"John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-44973698017534775142010-04-21T19:07:01.804-04:002010-04-21T19:07:01.804-04:00George wrote, "[T]his blog has pushed me to ....George wrote, "[T]his blog has pushed me to ... read all of Hall's 'Dogmatic Theology'."<br /><br />And that was time very well spent, wasn't it? Not only is Hall remarkably easy reading, at least considering his subject matter, but I always come away from him with a firm sense of reassurance. <br /><br />John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-20555370813496902562010-04-21T19:05:00.106-04:002010-04-21T19:05:00.106-04:00Canon Tallis wrote this comment, and we had cyber ...<b>Canon Tallis</b> wrote this comment, and we had cyber trouble posting it.<br /><br />Father Hart,<br /><br />I thought I hinted enough that it wasn't Archbishop Hart by my remark about a personal belief that the ordinary in question doesn't read this blog. I think we all know that the archbishop does read and even contribute to it in a positive manner. Indeed he is so the authentic Anglican that he tells the truth about himself and the ACC in a manner not entirely to it's or his advantage. And that is a man you can trust even when you still have issues about what is authentically Anglican and fear that what is being done lessens the evangelical impact of the ACC and the whole of the Continuum. I know that I am personally grateful that he is your diocesan and for your relationship with him. Why? Because it so clearly benefits us all. Considering what we began with at St Louis and subsequently at Denver the quality of our bishops have improved very impressively. But they are as yet not perfect nor should we expect them to ever be.<br /><br />On the other hand, we have every right collectively and individually to expect their first loyalty be to the Catholic faith as we find it expressed in the traditional and historical formulas enshrined in the prayer book tradition. We now are in the process of seeing what happens when bishops and others whose love and loyalty lies outside our tradition. People who depended upon them, communities who have depended upon their ordination oaths are now finding themselves soon to be without a familiar and supportive worship or parish community.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-23690095155678869742010-04-21T18:25:47.977-04:002010-04-21T18:25:47.977-04:00Anonymous said...
"Father - First you must k...Anonymous said...<br /><br />"Father - First you must know the truth, before you can tell the truth."<br /><br />Thomas: From the days when my parish was affiliated with the ACA to now as an interested non-ACA bystander, I've continually encountered statements to the effect that those not in favor of the AC did not know the facts or the truth, but with no supporting statements as to what the facts are or the truth is. Please, Thomas, can you clearly and distinctly tell us what truth Father Hart is missing here?<br /><br />Fr. Robert Hart said...<br /><br />"How cute. Can I refuse to quote you on that?"<br /><br />Father Hart: I applaud your efforts to expose fallacies regarding the AC, but is condescension really the best type of reply (however deserved)?<br /><br />A ContinuerAnglicanContinuerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09285681195361260378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-58684136025975055142010-04-21T17:21:10.401-04:002010-04-21T17:21:10.401-04:00How can you ban a blog? This sounds like book burn...How can you ban a blog? This sounds like book burning type stuff. <br /><br />I thought part of being Anglican was having an open mind, to read, listen, and understand different perspectives. This doesn't me we have to agree or internalize what others say.<br /><br />I'm a member of the ACA and this blog has pushed me to do a lot more reading on our "Anglican Patrimony". I went back read all of Hall's "Dogmatic Theology".Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18402467584294418765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-72181344213952634472010-04-21T17:04:18.321-04:002010-04-21T17:04:18.321-04:00Dear Fr. Bakker - thank you for sharing the story ...Dear Fr. Bakker - thank you for sharing the story of your experience within the TAC with us.<br /><br />The bottom line with the AC and the TAC is that we have no credible evidence of the "all will be revealed soon" been put out by the TAC in relation to special deals for the TAC.<br /><br />The AC is the AC. Take it or leave it. If one takes it, then know that you are denying Anglican priestly orders, denying our place in the Catholic and Apostolic Church. You cannot conclude anything else.<br /><br />This wholesale abandonment of orders by those who embrace the Apostolic Constitution is a form of denial of God's grace and truth.<br /><br />Why would Rome makes special provision for the TAC bishops and clergy and not Forward in Faith and other Anglican priests? Again, this makes no sense. <br /><br />I can only pray that the Lord will draw Fr. Bakker and other TAC priests to the Anglican Catholic Church where we know our orders, sacraments and Catholic life are real.Deacon Down Underhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14903366446394957630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-38822754554630898692010-04-21T15:44:08.019-04:002010-04-21T15:44:08.019-04:00I'm sure this ban will work as well as the Ind...I'm sure this ban will work as well as the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-2458545495797125962010-04-21T15:06:32.964-04:002010-04-21T15:06:32.964-04:00How cute. Can I refuse to quote you on that?How cute. Can I refuse to quote you on that?Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-87632668291734892202010-04-21T14:34:10.072-04:002010-04-21T14:34:10.072-04:00Fr Hart said......Can you not perceive of disagree...Fr Hart said......Can you not perceive of disagreement and responsible truth telling<br /><br />Father - First you must know the truth, before you can tell the truth. <br /><br />ThomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-74622197283319829712010-04-21T14:06:06.782-04:002010-04-21T14:06:06.782-04:00Thomas wrote:
If you are going to print these sta...Thomas wrote:<br /><br /><i>If you are going to print these statements, then at least have the decency to say which countries the TAC bishops have banned this blog...though I do not agree with your style of attack and depth of anger at the TAC...</i><br /><br />So far Australia, Canada, and even, yes, the eastern United States- at least when a person commented by name (and that i know for sure). As for my depth of anger with the TAC, it is exactly none at all. Can you not perceive of disagreement and responsible truth telling without an emotional knee jerk reaction as the motivation? You sound like a Democrat politician.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-17046839453701161812010-04-21T13:58:07.763-04:002010-04-21T13:58:07.763-04:00On the other hand, the sort of tactics being used ...<i>On the other hand, the sort of tactics being used the TAC prelates are not unknown among the "partisan Anglo-Catholic" episcopate of the ACC. A recent blog has been shut down...</i><br /><br />Canon Tallis:<br /><br />I do not question your word at all, but my own experience has been entirely positive. Archbishop Haverland himself is also my Diocesan Ordinary, and never once has he presumed to run this blog or to take advantage of his position as either my bishop or as metropolitan.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-41128466601415418692010-04-21T11:31:31.126-04:002010-04-21T11:31:31.126-04:00Not to make a pun, I think Fr. Hart has put his fi...Not to make a pun, I think Fr. Hart has put his finger on the heart of the matter. First, when "Anglicanorum coetibus" was issued, it was greeted by TAC hierarchs and representatives as the "answer" to the TAC's own requests to Rome and, at least implicitly, as everything the TAC desired or wanted.<br /><br />Aside from the small fact that it now appears "A.C." was the answer to someone else's request to Rome, it is incontestible that the same ones who said it has given everything their hearts desired (again, no pun intended), are now saying its terms must be renegotiated.<br /><br />Having recently taken my 9-year-old to another child's birthday party, this image pops into my mind of a kid ripping the fancy paper off a package and saying, "Thanks for the gift. It's something I really, really wanted! Oh, and now let's sit down and negotiate what you're really going to give me...."<br /><br />John A. Hollister+<br />"dodde", as in "don't dodde; hurry up!"John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.com