tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post668744163512129985..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: From Virtue OnlineFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-38162164537241924562010-06-28T07:13:26.826-04:002010-06-28T07:13:26.826-04:00My apologies. Somehow, I did not scan my entire c...My apologies. Somehow, I did not scan my entire comment into the little box...(and I think this comment would have been more appropriate if posted at Fr. Hart's post above)<br /><br />As you (Fr. Hart) pointed out in his comprehensive arguments above, the Roman church has decided she is without peer and is the arbitor of Christendom and has thus operated without submission to or benefit of the counsel of the whole Church. On her own recognizance, the Roman Church has created dogmas and doctrines and practices (not to mention thousands of saints) based on complex in-house eisegesis and her own rubrics that are not congruent with the whole counsel of scripture or with the mind of the whole Church through history. The result is an idiosyncratic theology that has as many unseemly and excessive additions as Rococo architecture (especially the Germanic versions). <br /><br />Through the centuries, when she has acted politically and violently, shedding the blood of other Christians to vaunt or maintain her own power and self-interests, she has made herself not a church, but a political state and part of the world system. The actions and dealings of the Roman Church in the centuries after Constantine onwar, through the Crusades, with Emperors and Kings, with Nazi Germany, in Croatia, on to the present as the sexual abuse and Maciel scandals have exposed her political and reprehensible acts. In doing all these things, the Roman church has, in fact, acted sinfully and schismatically. She has willfully departed from the Church Universal. For the Roman Church to reunite with the Church Universal on earth would require Rome to undergo great grief and Godly sorrow and in humble repentance renounce these actions and errors. <br /><br />May the Lord be merciful, grant her the grace and humility to face the truth, to engage in true sorrow unto complete repentance. AmenW. A. Whitestonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-84009405769405703412010-06-27T13:20:21.059-04:002010-06-27T13:20:21.059-04:00Councils and all men err. The RC, despite many st...Councils and all men err. The RC, despite many strengths and beauties, has its full share of errors in doctrine and practice. Their Catechism teaches a compromised Faith. Besides the doctrinal errors you named in the article above, the RC Catechism #841 gushingly affirms a despicable murderous religion and names it as as the first religion after Christianity. This has proven to be a dangerous and metastasizing error, one that has opened the door to more errors of syncretism and pluralism in many minds and hearts in the RC and beyond, giving place to the devil in the Church.<br /><br />As you pointed out in theW.A. Whitestonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-9988656364117803682010-06-26T23:49:26.534-04:002010-06-26T23:49:26.534-04:00The Former Anglican has attacked the honesty both ...The Former Anglican has attacked the honesty both of David Virtue and Fr. Sinclair. Notice, in the above comment, Bp. Wilkinson's term, "...the unrelenting attack against the Apostolic Constitution and Norms..."<br /><br />So now, defending Anglicanism is something that TAC clergy must relent from doing. Refusing to subject oneself to Rome and its terms of surrender is some sort of treason, punishable by excommunication-excommunication from an alleged, or self-proclaimed, Anglican bishop for refusing to convert to Roman Catholicism. <br /><br />Remember folks, the main ingredient for tarts is pepper.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-57129588152374826712010-06-26T23:43:27.632-04:002010-06-26T23:43:27.632-04:00This was sent by a link. Bishop Wilkinson has offe...This was sent by a link. Bishop Wilkinson has offered his version. You may decide for yourselves whether or not to believe him. <br />-Fr. Hart<br /><br /><i>Statement from Bishop Peter Wilkinson<br /><br /><br />After swimming in the Anglican Continuum shark tank for thirty-seven years I had hoped to escape without attack. It was not to be. There are two causes of the recent little disturbance at the Cathedral of St John the Evangelist in Victoria, BC.<br /><br />First was the unrelenting attack against the Apostolic Constitution and Norms by a former Rector and a few friends. Last Sunday at a duly called meeting to discuss one Resolution — to seek full communion with the See of Peter according to the Apostolic Constitution and Norms, and to support the Bishops of the ACCC in requesting the formation of a Personal Ordinariate in Canada — the Cathedral parish gave it an overwhelming Yes. Those who wrote the Letter to Virtue were obviously disappointed.<br /><br />Second, and connected with it, was the invitation by the same former Rector to invite an American bishop of the Continuum to come to Victoria (while all of us were at Synod in Vancouver) to discuss alternative oversight for those who could not accept the Ordinariate thus breaking his oath of obedience to the Ordinary. After meeting with him last Saturday, he and I were completely reconciled and the excommuncation lifted.<br /><br />Then later the same day, after writing to the local clergy to apologize for what he had done and the distress he had caused his fellow priests, he wrote me to say that he now chose to remain excommunicated and resign from the ACCC. He wrote a gracious letter to me. To the Dean, Chapter and Members of the Cathedral Parish of Saint John the Evangelist he wrote:<br /><br /> Dear Friends in Christ:<br /><br /> Bishop Peter, in his usual gracious manner, has offered terms of reconciliation. I love all of you and do not wish to be on anything less than terms of Christian friendship with you. But after thought and prayer, I have decided to accept excommunication, knowing that we still remain united in the faith of Christ, which is our true basis of unity….<br /><br />In this charitable fashion the matter should have ended. Unhappily it was not permitted to.<br /><br />+Peter Wilkinson OSG</i>Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-21022147046725004472010-06-26T13:45:06.561-04:002010-06-26T13:45:06.561-04:00By the way, I notice that David Virtue has posted ...By the way, I notice that David Virtue has posted the "Pro/Con" document to which I referred in a previous comment at:http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12807<br /><br />It is, in my view, well worth reading in its entirety and it is as balanced and fair a presentation of the issues as you're likely to find - and was only prepared by Fr. Stan because the bishops of the TAC refused to allow any open consideration and debate on such vital issues to take place. But because it doesn't tow the "party-line" Fr. Janzen determined that Fr. Stan had to be frog-jumped out of the church.Colin Chattannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-46155330200723116872010-06-26T13:22:55.946-04:002010-06-26T13:22:55.946-04:00"It boils down to this: An Anglican priest ha..."It boils down to this: An Anglican priest has been dismissed from his post for refusing to be a Roman Catholic. Life imitates a Salvidor Dali painting." You're quite right, Father - I mean in no way to diminish the gravity of what has been done, I just wanted to get the facts straight. <br /><br />I like and admire Bishop Wilkinson: he was one of the co-founders of the Victoria parish and in many ways has been a good spiritual and pastoral guide to the people of St. John's and the ACCC, and one of the sure pillars of the ACCC, right from the beginning. Like all the priests in our Church, he has made enormous personal sacrifices to stand with and serve us, even at the cost of his own health. <br /><br />That said, I think his current course of action, starting with the signing of the RC Catechism in Portsmouth, is unwise and certainly unpastoral. The unswerving pretension that, in joining an Ordinariate, we'll be merely continuing to eat our Anglican sundae with the addition of a delectable topping of communion with the Bishop of Rome, simply doesn't bear scrutiny. No Anglican since the Elizabethan Settlement has been required to sign on to the peculiar Roman dogmas, such as those involving Mary and papal infallibility. To join an Ordinariate is to become a Roman Catholic with special, limited provisions for liturgy and administration (in Aristotelian terms, the former is the "essence" of the deal, the latter merely "accidents" - wait, have I just stumbled upon a new application of the doctrine of "Transubstantiation"!?!). How then can acceptance of the AC be rationally required of any continuing Anglican? Moreover, the bishops of the ACCC in particular, and, from what I can see, the TAC in general, have been following an unofficial but quite deliberate, comprehensive, and consistent policy of suppressing or, at least, actively discouraging, all rational dissent and debate - as evidenced by the treatment that Canon Sinclair received. The protracted efforts to maintain the Potemkin Village facade may impress, or delude, the Vatican, but they put those of us who wish to remain loyal and faithful to the ACCC as a continuing Anglican Church, built up through the sacrifice and toil of our illustrious forbears such as Bishops de Catanzaro and Woolcock, and Fr. Palmer, in an impossible situation. To my knowledge Bishop Wilkinson has neither officially repudiated Fr. Janzen's atrocious letter (which was either sent or received on Fr. Sinclair's birthday!) nor swerved from the policy of suppressing open dissension. The Harry Truman principle that "the buck stops here" applies just as much to bishops as politicians.Colin Chattannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-34514144070248892932010-06-26T12:53:48.182-04:002010-06-26T12:53:48.182-04:00"It boils down to this: An Anglican priest ha..."It boils down to this: An Anglican priest has been dismissed from his post for refusing to be a Roman Catholic. Life imitates a Salvidor Dali painting.<br /><br />Seems to me since the Bishop has declared his intention to convert to RC then he believes his orders are invalid and that he is a layman, in that sense it is only logical that his excommunication is as invalid as any other office he performs. <br /><br />Why sweat it?<br /><br />Would any other orthodox bishop consider this a valid act?<br /><br />Veri: pigentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-75783150269277528812010-06-26T10:01:05.412-04:002010-06-26T10:01:05.412-04:00It boils down to this: An Anglican priest has been...It boils down to this: An Anglican priest has been dismissed from his post for refusing to be a Roman Catholic. Life imitates a Salvidor Dali painting.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-82222970069401014102010-06-26T08:09:16.733-04:002010-06-26T08:09:16.733-04:00As I've heard the story, Bishop Wilkinson did ...As I've heard the story, Bishop Wilkinson did not excommunicate Canon Sinclair from the ACCC, rather, Fr. Janzen "excommunicated" Canon Sinclair from St. John's parish (the only parish of the ACCC in Victoria). Subsequently Bishop Wilkinson met with Canon Sinclair, but l don't know the substance of their discussion. Canon Sinclair then formally withdrew from the ACCC. As regards Bishop Wilkinson, Canon Sinclair and Fr. Janzen, if “Fr. Janzen “ is substituted for “Bishop Wilkinson” (and “Rector/Dean of St. John’s” for “Bishop/Archbishop”) down to and including the paragraph, <br />“Reaction to the Archbishop's sacking of Sinclair was swift and condemnatory. One parishioner wrote, "I did not join Saint John's to be a Roman Catholic"<br />David Virtue’s account more or less corresponds to the story as I’ve heard it.Colin Chattannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-2099959891546866142010-06-26T02:42:43.762-04:002010-06-26T02:42:43.762-04:00When people, even clergy, behave in this manner th...When people, even clergy, behave in this manner they are telling everyone that they know themselves to be in the wrong. It is something we have seen in TEO for a long, long time, but now to find it in the Continuum - last Sunday's epistle was only too much to the point.<br /><br />What really is being done in the ACCC/TAC and the TAC as a whole? I hope this somehow comes to the attention of every cleric and layperson in the TAC and it wakes them up to a situation which I find so un-Anglican and unacceptable that it becomes harder and harder to believe that any of this could have been entered into in good faith.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-50490988973359875102010-06-26T01:16:49.976-04:002010-06-26T01:16:49.976-04:00Colin Chattan wrote: "The accusations agains...Colin Chattan wrote: "The accusations against Canon Sinclair came from the Rector of St. John's, Fr. Shane Janzen, not from Bishop Wilkinson."<br /><br />If Mr. Virtue's report is to be believed -- and he usually gets his facts right -- it was Bp. Wilkinson who acted on Fr. Janzen's delation by excommunicating Canon Sinclair.<br /><br />And, according to the same source, it was Bp. Wilkinson who told Canon Sinclair that the price of his remaining in the ACC-Can. and the TAC was his submitting to being muzzled.<br /><br />So, between Fr. Janzen and Bp. Wilkinson, which is wearing the (other sort of dog) collar and which is holding the leash? <br /><br />John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-36750259310163051992010-06-26T00:59:46.662-04:002010-06-26T00:59:46.662-04:00Two statements from Mr. Virtue's article:
1. ...Two statements from Mr. Virtue's article:<br /><br />1. "In a Parish Newsletter, the Dean accused Canon Sinclair of lies and duplicity and distributing false information."<br /><br />Well, as an avowed partisan of a policy that was foisted on the membership of the ACC-Can. without any Synodal action or vote by its clergy and laity, and given the context in which this dispute arose, few would be inclined to question that Dean's expertise in matters of lies, duplicity, and distributing false information.<br /><br />2. "The Bishop invited him to lunch and made an offer to rescind the excommunication and reinstate his license on the condition that he withheld any further discussions with other churches until after the Synod."<br /><br />In other words, there are no such thing as free speech or unfettered discussion in the ACC-Can. and, it seems, in the TAC in general. Attempt to debate the merits of a proposal from on high and the penalty for one's presumption is excommunication.<br /><br />Usually, of course, those who suppress open debate do so because they have cause to fear what may come out during such discussion. What do you suppose is being hidden here?<br /><br />John A. Hollister+<br />"hoplerna"John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-19907562821736152762010-06-25T23:31:52.585-04:002010-06-25T23:31:52.585-04:00The accusations against Canon Sinclair came from t...The accusations against Canon Sinclair came from the Rector of St. John's, Fr. Shane Janzen, not from Bishop Wilkinson.Colin Chattannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-32268245968319933712010-06-25T22:15:39.093-04:002010-06-25T22:15:39.093-04:00Someone neeeds to tell these clowns (I refer to TA...Someone neeeds to tell these clowns (I refer to TAC bishops) that the time is long past when barbarian kings could order their armies baptized at spear-point. Less than a year ago, certain spokesmen of the TAC were boasting through the various media that they were about to deliver a huge number, somewhere between 400,000 and 700,000 souls, into the Roman Catholic Church. The huge number as never any more than a pure falsehood. But now, parish by parish, they are backing out. No one will be surprised, saved Bishop Hepworth and Cardinal Levada.<br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-63144188712363972612010-06-25T20:33:08.397-04:002010-06-25T20:33:08.397-04:00And given how much many of love Anglicanism, our p...And given how much many of love Anglicanism, our particular Book of Common Prayer and our tradition, what else did these folks believe would happen? Did they really think thier folk would follow them over the cliff like lemmings?Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-34066372390327031932010-06-25T19:31:09.554-04:002010-06-25T19:31:09.554-04:00Fr.Sinclair is a good man and a faithful priest wh...Fr.Sinclair is a good man and a faithful priest who is loved and respected by all except the cabal who have seized control of the Canadian Church.Even the minority of Canadian Churchmen who favour Anglicanorum Coetibus will be shocked to see how Canon Sinclair has been treated.Fr.James A. Chantlernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-19992719851370855762010-06-25T19:21:56.656-04:002010-06-25T19:21:56.656-04:001. No ACA diocese has officially decided not to ...1. No ACA diocese has officially decided not to accept the Apostolic Constitution. The ACA bishops *have* come up with a plan to provide pastoral care to parishes that wish to remain outside of the ordinariate, while supporting those who wish to be received into the new structure.<br /><br />2. I know that the bishops of the ACCC have been welcoming questions and encouraging discussion. They are trying to get as many people as possible to synod to allow a full discussion over several days. All members - and all points of view - are welcome. The hope is that people considering leaving will stay in until they've had this chance to hear a full presentation of what is being planned, ask all the questions they desire, and have a comprehensive discussion. They've been asking people to keep cool heads until then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com