tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post6536543795970040585..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: First Sunday after TrinityFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-8515624220222804442013-06-05T15:45:57.240-04:002013-06-05T15:45:57.240-04:00I dont think Ftaher Kirby would appreciate the doo...I dont think Ftaher Kirby would appreciate the doorstep comment.Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-59333090868125890752013-06-05T02:51:10.633-04:002013-06-05T02:51:10.633-04:00You should take Susan's question about the Cat...You should take Susan's question about the Catholic Encyclopedia seriously.<br />Remarkably both the author of the CE article and the authors of the Wikipedia article used Lutheran sources.<br />To say that the CE is worth only a doorstop is beneath you. Simple anti-Romanism, not a worthy opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-9880323990017950672013-06-04T22:39:46.605-04:002013-06-04T22:39:46.605-04:00Great message Fr. Hart.
It was very unfortunate ...Great message Fr. Hart. <br /><br />It was very unfortunate that Luther said what he did regarding the Book of James--and it's quite ironic given the strong agreement of the great truths that our Lord gave to us in the Book of James and the great doctrine of justification by faith alone as brought to light by Luther. I think of this as one of Luther's "druken Noah" moments (i.e. a grave failing of a man used mightily of God). <br /> <br />Luther's problem with James stems from his difficulty accepting the distinctive, non-Pauline terminology of James. In particular, James uses the term "justified" in a broader sense than typically employed by Paul (that is, in contrast with Paul's typical narrower usage of the term in reference to our immaculate forensic righteousness in Christ apart from any works or intrinsic righteousness of our own). Cranmer correctly noted on this point [Notes on Justification]: "St. James meant of justification in another sense, when he said, 'A man is justified by works and not by faith only.' For he spake of such a justification which is a declaration, continuation, and increase of that justification which St. Paul spake of before."<br /><br />Hooker likewise notes in his Discourse on Justification: "Except infants, and men cut off upon the point of their conversion, of the rest none shall see God but such as seek peace and holiness, though not as a cause of their salvation, yet as a way through which they must walk that will be saved. Did they hold that without works we are not justified? Take justification so that it may also imply sanctification, and St. James doth say as much; for except there be an ambiguity in some term, St. Paul and St. James do contradict each other, which cannot be. Now, there is no ambiguity in the name either of faith or of works, both being meant by them both in one and the same sense. Finding therefore that justification is spoken of by St. Paul without implying sanctification when he proveth that a man is justified by faith without works; finding likewise that justification doth sometimes imply sanctification also with it; I suppose nothing more sound than so to interpret St. James as speaking not in that sense, but in this. <br /><br />We have already showed that there are two kinds of Christian righteousness: the one without us, which we have by imputation; the other in us, which consisteth of faith, hope, charity, and other Christian virtues; and St. James doth prove that Abraham had not only the one, because the thing he believed was imputed unto him for righteousness, but also the other, because he offered up his son. God giveth us both the one justice [righteousness] and the other: the one by accepting us for righteous in Christ; the other by working Christian righteousness in us." <br /><br />God Bless, W.A. Scott (this will probably be my last post for the time being)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-18801722552151148402013-06-04T17:05:50.777-04:002013-06-04T17:05:50.777-04:00Well, all available historical evidence indicates ...Well, all available historical evidence indicates that the Roman Magisterium did apostatize. But the Roman Magisterium is not identical to the Church Catholic so the Church was not overcome when this occurred. The Catholic Church continued to exist even when the local Magisterium of Rome joined the gates of hell in an attempt to prevail against her. While the bishops of Rome and the Roman Magisterium were busy deserting the sheep entrusted to them and abandoning the doctrine of the Apostles with which the Church of Rome (and all of the other local churches) had been entrusted, the Catholic Church continued. Believing Christians in the Western Church were deserted by their shepherds, who were more interested in worldly gain than they were in spiritual things, [FN13] but the desertion of the sheep by their shepherds did not destroy the church. It survived the apostasy of these “priests” just as the Old Testament church survived the apostasy of her priests.Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-32950577941861497592013-06-04T07:37:25.032-04:002013-06-04T07:37:25.032-04:00Wonderful comment, JnDamascus. Sure doesn't s...Wonderful comment, JnDamascus. Sure doesn't sound as if Luther simply thought the Book of James was "less important", as Fr Hart stated. After all, you quote Luther as saying that "we should throw the epistle of James out of this school".<br /><br />My point being, Fr Hart seemingly cut Luther a whole lot of slack. Just my opinion.<br /><br />Anyway, you are correct that there is no real contradiction between James and Paul. My Bible notes this on the issue: "Our willingness to put faith into action has a direct bearing on whether or not we will be saved in the end". And further, "faith in God is inseparable from faithfulness to God".<br /><br />Susan<br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-49737097791716141312013-06-03T17:53:13.397-04:002013-06-03T17:53:13.397-04:00I have to hand it to Wikipedia. They are right tha...I have to hand it to Wikipedia. They are right that Jude and Revelation are the final books in the German Bible.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-52003118663735017992013-06-03T13:30:56.474-04:002013-06-03T13:30:56.474-04:00There are several sides here. First, we have to un...There are several sides here. First, we have to understand the language of the time, and especially the feisty nature of Luther, who was prone to hyperbole. Second, Luther was less than complementary about James. Here are a couple of quotes: "The epistle of James gives us much trouble, for the Papists embrace it alone and leave out all the rest…Accordingly, if they will not admit my interpretations, then I shall make rubble also of it. I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kalenberg did." (Luther’s Works, American Edition Vol. 34, p. 317) Or, "We should throw the epistle of James out of this school [i.e. Wittenburg], for it doesn’t amount to much. It contains not a syllable about Christ. Not once does it mention Christ, except at the beginning. I maintain that some Jew wrote it who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any. Since he heard that Christians place great weight on faith in Christ, he thought, ‘Wait a moment! I’ll oppose them and urge works alone.’ This he did." (Luther’s Works, American Edition Vol. 54, p. 424). <br />Third, Luther, despite these comments, did not remove James from the Bible, though in his personal copy he wrote numerous comments in the margins, such as, at James 1:6, "This is the only good place in the whole epistle;“ and on 2:24, with the words on a man being justified, not by faith only" his marginal comment was "That is false." Fourth, Luther's comments one way or another are not really of the essence for the real points at issue, and the Church has always known that there is no real contradiction between James and Paul- the context and especially the vocabulary being key to seeing how they fit together. This is, I think, Fr. Hart's big point. FrFodorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07893793333637423561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-14287035106244440442013-06-03T10:34:55.189-04:002013-06-03T10:34:55.189-04:00This many only be somewhat related Father but I al...This many only be somewhat related Father but I always found what the gospels say about Zecharias and Elizabeth to be striking. It says that they were holy and walked blameless in the ordinances of the Lord. This sounds so very different from the Protestant contention that we are all wretched sinners.Brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-71584362643224518762013-06-02T20:06:35.323-04:002013-06-02T20:06:35.323-04:00Fr Hart,
What resources do you recommend? Are th...Fr Hart,<br /><br />What resources do you recommend? Are they unbiased? I doubt it, for what is?<br /><br />But to respond... a quote from Wikipedia: "Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.[4]<br /><br />If Luther's negative view of these books were based only upon the fact that their canonicity was disputed in early times, 2 Peter might have been included among them, because this epistle was doubted more than any other in ancient times. However, the prefaces that Luther affixed to these four books makes it evident that his low view of them was more due to his theological reservations than with any historical investigation of the canon."<br /><br />Hmmm... so Wikipedia seems to come to the same conclusion as that of Catholic Encyclopedia.<br /><br />What say you?<br /><br />Susan Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-86821502159908642013-06-02T16:42:08.253-04:002013-06-02T16:42:08.253-04:00Does anyone know where I can contact Father Kirby?...Does anyone know where I can contact Father Kirby?Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-46056908133526698782013-06-02T13:34:09.642-04:002013-06-02T13:34:09.642-04:00Both of those books are in the Gutenberg Bible, so...Both of those books are in the Gutenberg Bible, so he didn't remove them. If you want to glean your history of the Reformation from a dogmatically Roman instrument, I suggest you don't treat it as some sort of objective source. Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-29669901542750148472013-06-02T11:13:55.244-04:002013-06-02T11:13:55.244-04:00Fr Hart,
On what bases do you find the Catholic E...Fr Hart,<br /><br />On what bases do you find the Catholic Encyclopedia so lacking in merit? Please justify your protest with concrete facts.<br /><br />We know from Eusebius that some books were disputed very early on, although "known and approved by many". They included the Epistle of James and the Revelation of John (among others), both of which Luther later tried to remove from the canon. Why did he want them removed? Is the Catholic Encyclopedia wrong in its scholars' assessment that Luther repudiated James for his own dogmatic purposes? <br /> <br /><br />Thank you,<br /><br />Susan Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-70609107267603908252013-06-02T00:33:58.572-04:002013-06-02T00:33:58.572-04:00One implication of St. James' epistle is that ...One implication of St. James' epistle is that Christianity is not in essence propositional, but incarnational. Christians are not primarily philosophers excogitating upon dogmatic abstractions, but branches bearing fruit on the divine vine, enlivened and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Hence the absolutely vital, integral importance of the sacraments to the Christian faith - and hence Christianity has, naturally, a liturgical dimension. And hence St. James's declaration (1:27): "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."Colin Chattannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-57497456511179094052013-06-01T21:41:22.289-04:002013-06-01T21:41:22.289-04:00Susan:
The difference between the "Catholic ...Susan:<br /><br />The difference between the "Catholic Encyclopedia" and me is pretty straightforward. I actually quoted Luther, whereas their "scholars" put words in his mouth. I put no stock in the "Catholic Encyclopedia," and neither should anybody. It makes a good door stop though.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-51141194559215116102013-06-01T19:15:32.987-04:002013-06-01T19:15:32.987-04:00Father Hart what you have written here seems to be...Father Hart what you have written here seems to be in harmony with what Trent, Aquinas and Rome teaches about justification. Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-89026128665448840902013-06-01T18:40:42.527-04:002013-06-01T18:40:42.527-04:00Fr Hart,
Luther did not just think that the Book ...Fr Hart,<br /><br />Luther did not just think that the Book of James was less important. From Catholic Encyclopedia:<br /><br />"Luther strongly repudiated the Epistle as "a letter of straw", and "unworthy of the apostolic Spirit", and this solely for dogmatic reasons, and owing to his preconceived notions, for the epistle refutes his heretical doctrine that Faith alone is necessary for salvation."<br /><br />Faith and behavior go together. Faith apart from works is dead, and works apart from faith are dead.<br /><br />Even the demons believe - and shudder. (James 2:19)<br /><br />Susan Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com