tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post2732430442702133224..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Baiticum et SwitchorumFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-24412290371272588122009-11-16T02:15:46.697-05:002009-11-16T02:15:46.697-05:00Contributors to this board are not the only ones u...Contributors to this board are not the only ones upset by the recent actions between Benedict XVI and TAC.<br /><br />The Tablet in Britain, the mouthpiece for the establishment (read: liberals) is hacked off:<br /><br />http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100016738/the-tablet-launches-a-bitter-and-ignorant-attack-on-the-popes-apostolic-constitution/<br /><br />I think Thompson is referring to this editorial:<br />http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/13797<br /><br />or perhaps this:<br /><br />http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/13888<br /><br />The Tablet has wasted more ink (or bandwidth) but these are sufficient.<br /><br />I think what scares the Tablet is that they have lost hope that the RCC would try to adsorb the Druids and Wiccans that now constitute the C of E.<br /><br />Oh well.RC Colanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-14878093453443940242009-11-15T15:15:14.576-05:002009-11-15T15:15:14.576-05:00Fr.Kirby:
The TAC's own website is to blame-t...Fr.Kirby:<br /><br />The TAC's own website is to blame-they report these words as coming from Abp. Hepworth.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-22198955082791497032009-11-15T05:29:15.426-05:002009-11-15T05:29:15.426-05:00To those who say,"let us speak of the things ...<i>To those who say,"let us speak of the things that really matter to Christians," my response is that nothing is more important to the Church than the apostolic succession. The blasphemy that was committed at Deer Field Beach is about to be repeated.<br /><br />You read right, blasphemy.</i><br /><br />Fr John,<br /><br />Nothing more important than Apostolic Succession? Really? What about the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation? Saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and eternal life? Loving God and neighbour?<br /><br />As for the Deerfield Beach re-consecrations, can we not distinguish between the objective sacrilegious reality of repeating sacraments unnecessarily, scandalously and imprudently, and the subjective (but explicitly stated) intention of allaying the doubts that others held, even though the immediate participants (both ministers and recipients) did not share those doubts? This claim that third parties held doubts about ACC orders due to irregularities at the beginning was true, by the way, as the physical absence of a third consecrator was pointed to as problematic by some. Yes, I know this was insufficient reason for doubt according to the ancient canons, and I know that the people who expressed doubts were critics outside the Continuing Movement looking for excuses, and should not have had their views respected, but still, there is a difference between foolish error and malicious sin. Let us hold back from words that sound like condemnation of persons rather than actions and thus appear to presume God-like knowledge of human hearts.<br /><br />And, yes, I know I could be accused of having made the same mistake in the past.<br /><br />God have mercy on us all.<br /><br />By the way, the "chips on our shoulders" comments on the Messenger website are NOT those of Abp Hepworth, but those of a RC Cistercian, Brother Stephen. They were taken, along with the whole commentary, without attribution from this page: http://subtuum.blogspot.com/2009/10/forward-in-faith-assembly-day-two-as.html .<br /><br />Fr Hart, I think we should update the original post to reflect this correction. The Messenger website has confused the issue by not making clear who the narrator is. My suspicions it was a third party were raised when I noticed the transition from "third person" to talk about ++Hepworth to first person in the comments which speak from an avowedly RC perspective.Fr Matthew Kirbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14386951752314314095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-58809834165741954822009-11-15T01:33:36.272-05:002009-11-15T01:33:36.272-05:00I appreciate that, and would recommend a "han...I appreciate that, and would recommend a "handle" rather than a name in such cases.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-28966465819730549342009-11-14T23:42:45.145-05:002009-11-14T23:42:45.145-05:00Fr Hart said:
Folks, could we create handles or u...Fr Hart said:<br /><br /><i>Folks, could we create handles or use names? I can't tell if the last string of anonymice were one person or several.</i><br /><br />I think some people are currently unable to speak their opinion publically for obvious reasons, but it is confusing to read.<br /><br />TAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66131757610726975032009-11-14T23:40:50.636-05:002009-11-14T23:40:50.636-05:00John Hollister said:
I have no doubt Ed did suffe...John Hollister said:<br /><br /><i>I have no doubt Ed did suffer rudeness and/or thoughtlessness at the hands of someone, somewhere in the ACC, for which I am heartily sorry. I hope he will accept my apologies, extended (unofficially but nonetheless sincerely) on behalf of my church home.<br /><br />All church groups contain at least a few such people; we are, after all, hospitals for sinners, not hostels for saints. So while such memories may legitimately color our reactions to paricular congregations, and of course will affect our feelings about actually attending those congregations, they should not be used to paint an entire jurisdiction or communion.</i><br /><br />I like the tone of your post. <br /><br />I have enjoyed many good conversations and relationships with friends within the ACC-OP. However, like many others here- I have suffered much insult from the occasional person who usually seems more interested in the politics of events past than in the fellowship all Continuers share in Jesus Christ and our mutual love of the BCP. I am not interested in the politics of what happened to so-and-so back when or who did what at whatever place. I love Jesus, and all the politics of the few mean nothing compared to His glory. In fact, those engaged in such churchianity often look like they are in desperate need of more Jesus and less purple cloth.<br /><br />So, if the ACC-OP really and truly wish to welcome "home" other Continuing Anglicans, I heartily encourage them to make such gestures as John Hollister has. I accept John's apology on behalf of those who have insulted me at least.<br /><br />TAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-44431979889394652012009-11-14T23:29:57.312-05:002009-11-14T23:29:57.312-05:00David Gould said:
For Anglican Catholics, what Ar...<b>David Gould</b> said:<br /><br /><i>For Anglican Catholics, what Archbishop Hepworth, the Primate of the Traditional Anglican Communion proposes is indeed anathema to those of us who know that our orders and sacraments are valid.<br /><br />I do not know the mind of Archbishop Hepworth...</i><br /><br />The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the TAC membership will utterly refuse to have their orders and sacraments regarded as invalid and will not enter into any arrangement that says the contrary. There is currently some discussion about the AC by the TAC with the CDF about clarifying some points- a natural development as one would expect.<br /><br />The bottom line is that many (most/all?)within the TAC don't believe that the AC can possibly apply on every point to their situation (although it certainly would apply to some Anglicans within the Canterbury Communion) and should the wrong kind of clarifications come from the CDF, there won't be much acceptance from members of the TAC, and it could even be a deal breaker.<br /><br />If anyone here thinks that the TAC membership will blindly follow whatever the heirarchy says and somehow they have also lost touch of their Anglican identity, I assure you that they would be gravely mistaken.<br /><br />Now, I realise that many on the outside of the TAC are prepared to speak on the TAC's behalf, but this would also be a mistake. Likewise, anyone who is second guessing +Hepworth. Only time will tell which way the cat will jump.<br /><br />TAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-84325769083417923332009-11-14T12:39:06.048-05:002009-11-14T12:39:06.048-05:00To the Anonymous who wrote, "Canadian Anglica...To the Anonymous who wrote, "Canadian Anglican Catholics ... will see a large exodus of their people to other groups who subscribe to the Affirmation Of St.Louis", I can only respond, "Welcome home."<br /><br />John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-48496132109888109442009-11-14T12:37:06.910-05:002009-11-14T12:37:06.910-05:00Why not just revert to the old policy of not posti...Why not just revert to the old policy of not posting messages that have no signature?<br /><br />'suplist'Albion Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14423168351697120421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-6475760336263735482009-11-14T12:27:57.800-05:002009-11-14T12:27:57.800-05:00Folks, could we create handles or use names? I can...Folks, could we create handles or use names? I can't tell if the last string of anonymice were one person or several.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-11490663799608336552009-11-14T11:17:56.714-05:002009-11-14T11:17:56.714-05:00Poetreader is correct when he says "the ACA ...Poetreader is correct when he says "the ACA has not ceased being Anglican though one might justly say that some of her heirarchs have".I also agree with Anonymous who responded to Poetreader's comment that once those of the ACA's leadership and those who would follow them into Rome's Ordinariate have made their move then there remains no satisfactory justification for the separation of the ACA and the ACC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-53491854967983984282009-11-14T10:58:33.250-05:002009-11-14T10:58:33.250-05:00Re : Cerub's "Oh dear!The myopia of Ameri...Re : Cerub's "Oh dear!The myopia of American Anglicanism".I hope Cerub's view does not spring from a sort of Anti-Americanism.That being said he makes a point which many outside the borders of the USA find valid.The scandal of disunity amongst the Continuing Churches in America has hurt not only themselves but the whole Continuum.I do not concur with his estimation of ++John and I second Poetreader's view that most of the laity want nothing to do with the Apostolic Constitution. A united Continuum in America would not be small beer!I would urge Cerub to not only question the way TAC's finances are handled but also examine their various and wildly exaggerated claims of membership.In any event as someone<br />who enjoys the occasional glass of stout or ale:a small glass of good beer beats a big glass of lousy beer any day!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-49876964858915379822009-11-14T10:29:23.044-05:002009-11-14T10:29:23.044-05:00As for the second comment by Anonymous on this thr...As for the second comment by Anonymous on this thread there are,no doubt, questions about financial accountability in the TAC.Please note that having questions about financial accountability does not imply that those mishandling the TAC'S finances are dishonest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-27720530956105638672009-11-14T10:18:27.175-05:002009-11-14T10:18:27.175-05:00As for the first comment on this thread by Anonymo...As for the first comment on this thread by Anonymous I can say that Canadian Anglican Catholics were told by their Bishops that their goal was to advance the efforts at Church reunion which had stalled after the invention of women priests.We were assured that their intent was to approach Rome as a sister Church and that submission to Rome or absorption by her was not at all what they had in mind. Somewhere along the way TAC's College Of Bishops embarked on the misadventure which resulted in Rome's offer of the Apostolic Constitution.I don't think Rome can be accused of Bait And Switch but as for the TAC'S Bishops I can only say that they have alienated many and will see a large exodus of their people to other groups who subscribe to the Affirmation Of St.Louis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-90904434574320799632009-11-14T09:56:11.364-05:002009-11-14T09:56:11.364-05:00RC Cola gave the link to an article by Fr. Rear in...RC Cola gave the link to an article by Fr. Rear in "The Catholic Herald".<br /><br />At least on the facts of history, it was surprisingly accurate, bar the anacronism of treating Papal Infallibility as a devisive issue in the 17th Century. That it could hardly have been, because Rome had not yet, and for another nearly 300 years would not yet, tie its ship to that insecure bollard.<br /><br />John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-78974968329265713122009-11-14T09:44:25.378-05:002009-11-14T09:44:25.378-05:00I have no doubt Ed did suffer rudeness and/or thou...I have no doubt Ed did suffer rudeness and/or thoughtlessness at the hands of someone, somewhere in the ACC, for which I am heartily sorry. I hope he will accept my apologies, extended (unofficially but nonetheless sincerely) on behalf of my church home.<br /><br />All church groups contain at least a few such people; we are, after all, hospitals for sinners, not hostels for saints. So while such memories may legitimately color our reactions to paricular congregations, and of course will affect our feelings about actually attending those congregations, they should not be used to paint an entire jurisdiction or communion.<br /><br />John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-24411440111343073952009-11-14T08:46:55.454-05:002009-11-14T08:46:55.454-05:00C'mon guys, it's crunch time and we have t...C'mon guys, it's crunch time and we have to get past this somehow. Anonymous T brought up an extremely important point which has just been lost again -<br /><br />Where will the ACA/TAC laity go when their parishes are turned over to the RCC and they are left behind??<br /><br />I know one man in particular, whom, with all respect and affection, I call our own 'fisher of men' who will be gathering in the lost sheep, but this is going to require the resources of more than that.<br /><br />Look, we are all human, and even on our best days we fail; we mess up; we offend other people; we get offended and refuse to get over it.<br /><br />This needs to stop. Please, whatever the divisions are (or have been), can you not confess, apologize and forgive? <br /><br />There are about to be broken parishes and homeless souls, and it's vitally important that our churches, all of them as 'one', regardless of affiliation, extend the hand of Christian love and salvation to those whose church homes split apart as some go to Rome and the rest do not.<br /><br />H1940Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-34999774320682387722009-11-14T08:36:55.839-05:002009-11-14T08:36:55.839-05:00And what will the Vatican think of those multiple ...And what will the Vatican think of those multiple ordinations? They will say,"It doesn't matter, because none of them were valid anyway."<br /><br />But I know that at least one was, and so do they.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-16866204032280122492009-11-14T08:09:53.977-05:002009-11-14T08:09:53.977-05:00I have no qualms about saying, beware! These are t...I have no qualms about saying, beware! These are the same ACA leaders who brought you Deer Field Beach. I also believe that the fact that this will be the the third, and in some cases fourth ordination, for some of these gentlemen is a telling fact.<br /><br />The Deer Field Beach consecrations did untold damage to the Anglican Catholic Church. Where would the ACC be now if we had accepted that abortion?<br /><br />Now the same leadership has another bright idea that will inflict further damage on the continuum.<br /><br />I am not being divisive, or mean spirited when I point this out.<br /><br />The leadership of the ACA/TAC has been a failure on many levels. Now they are on a suicide mission that will wreck the ACA.<br /><br />When I read "Archbishop" Hepworth's spin on the AC, I see deception at worst, incompetent leadership at best, and no regard for the desires of the clergy and laity of the ACA.<br /><br />What is divisive, or mean spirited with my highlighting the leadership failures of the bishops of the ACA? Once again, like Deer Field Beach, they have chosen a course that further divides the Continuum, and will once again undergo ordination.<br /><br />Someone wrote that the American Churches look "rather daft when they start pontificating," and that they are taken less and less seriously every year.<br /><br />Let me point out that what looks really daft is the bishops of the ACA/TAC getting themselves re-ordained every several years, that is an action that clearly destroys their credibility, and by association ours.<br /><br />If these gentlemen are not real bishops, priests, and deacons by now, after so many ordinations, why follow them?<br /><br />To those who say,"let us speak of the things that really matter to Christians," my response is that nothing is more important to the Church than the apostolic succession. The blasphemy that was committed at Deer Field Beach is about to be repeated.<br /><br />You read right, blasphemy.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-54329550719193451102009-11-14T06:11:59.177-05:002009-11-14T06:11:59.177-05:00From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:
Poetre...From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:<br /><br />Poetreader:<br /><br />You just know that "In practice, however, the Roman Church acts as though only the hierarchy counts". All right then. <br /><br />Sometimes, I do wish that was so...Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-13247415726573719732009-11-14T05:31:55.623-05:002009-11-14T05:31:55.623-05:00I will take a back seat to no one in my dislike if...I will take a back seat to no one in my dislike if not actual hatred for the dreaded cassock albs, but I have come to have a great delight in the necessary (for us) revival of the most ancient custom of receiving communion standing. Truth be told, I have reached the conclusion that kneeling for prayers that are actually acts of praise needs to be abandoned and the customs of the earliest Christians revived among us wherever possible.<br /><br />Perhaps another primitive custom that needs to be revived is the very, very old one of actually loving one another. I know that what is coming is going to be very hard on some. I myself remember how terrifying it was to realize that I was no longer going to be able to worship in the Episcopal Church and faced a life of reading the offices with my family and then alone. St Louis was an assurance to me that there was a family of Christians waiting for me and if some of the clergy, especially the bishops did much to make it difficult, if not entirely ruinous, then there was charity among the laity to make each passage possible and less frightening. That, in the times to come, is a task that we must all embrace and hopefully find as a great joy.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-60149331491715645072009-11-14T02:15:02.448-05:002009-11-14T02:15:02.448-05:00Excuse me; the negative things I have heard have b...Excuse me; the negative things I have heard have been flat out lies except for Ed's unpleasant experiences with certain individuals in the ACC. I am sure someone really did behave rudely, and that is a shame.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-89028365256263230932009-11-14T02:09:12.612-05:002009-11-14T02:09:12.612-05:00Fr. Hart has kindly testified to his reversal of o...Fr. Hart has kindly testified to his reversal of opinion and, implicitly, to the reality of his welcome, once he found himself actually within that (gasp!) narrow, legalistic, naval-gazing, self-absorbed, Anglican Catholic Church.<br /><br />At our Provincial Synod, there were in attendance several former ACA/TAC priests -- four spring immediately to mind both by face and by name, including the Priest in Charge of the host Parish -- who could give similar testimonies that they were not actually required to sacrifice their first-born or abjure their mothers-in-law upon their joining us. <br /><br />(A much more modest conditional Deed of Trust upon the first-born usually suffices instead. If there is no first-born, then a draft choice may often be arranged.)<br /><br />John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-41759108443525026692009-11-14T01:50:21.654-05:002009-11-14T01:50:21.654-05:00I'm not going to do jurisdiction bashing here....I'm not going to do jurisdiction bashing here. I consider it desperately wrong, but Father, you have heard things from me that are first hand observations, and serve as reasons that I prefer to be where I am rather than in ACC. Whether you believe me or not, and whether my observation is accurate or not, I am speaking truth just as I have seen it. I do not take kindly to being told that everything you've heard is a flat out lie, for that would include me. Perhaps you have heard some untruths. So have I, from both sides and against both sides. But to make as sweeping a statemnt as that is to come perilously close to false witness.<br />Please try to avoid such hurtful hyperbole.<br /><br />We're on the same side, and may be together in one jurisdicition in the not distant future, but comments of that nature make it harder to face that possibility and tend to confirm the poor impression I have, which could be inaccurate, and which I hope is wrong<br /><br />edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-36310404770546023962009-11-14T01:16:34.886-05:002009-11-14T01:16:34.886-05:00What I said was "We are our brother's kee...What I said was "We are our brother's keepers, including those who have the Deerfield Beach debacle in their own history." If that charitable and forgiving comment is to be seen as evil, mean-spirited and divisive, then truly for some there is no hope at all. No one anywhere defends what happened back then; the obvious point is to heal the wound. And, that this was the meaning of my comment is also obvious.<br /><br />Some anonymous hit and run driver wrote:<br /><br /><i>Many people living abroad consider American religion to be the cause of all this nonsense, so when people start pontificating on the world stage from the tiny congregations associated with American Continuing Anglicanism they do look rather daft the rest of the planet. Not to mention they are being taken seriously less and less every year.</i><br /><br />I can see why someone making so asinine a comment would choose to remain anonymous. To blame us in the CC for the apostasy in the Canterbury Communion is completely unjust.<br /><br />Also, every church body has a few tiny congregations; I do not know what constitutes "tiny." We have some congregations with well over three hundred,and some with no more than twenty. The church here in Chapel Hill has grown from about 70 to about 90 in the few months I have been here.<br /><br />As for how seriously we are taken, the ACC is growing in various countries, and I assure you we are taken very seriously in India, South Africa, Haiti, the Sudan, etc. <br /><br />T wrote:<br /><br /><i>I have heard TAC laity who are not happy with the AC say that they will have no place to go because they won't go to such-and-such communion because of some reason or another. I have to admit that they have good points as to why they wouldn't go either to Rome or another Anglican jurisdiction as well.</i><br /><br />So, what do they plan to do? Stay home, forsake the Church, refuse the sacraments, watch TV and be bitter? Everything I was told about the ACC before I met the people in it, and learned the facts, was a flat out lie, often repeated by someone who truly believed it. I suggest that some people find out for themselves what I have learned.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.com