tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post8789021498105699831..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Apostolic ChurchFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-9509962325861741232018-10-14T06:51:31.689-04:002018-10-14T06:51:31.689-04:00Apostolic Church Nigeria Extols Governor Emmanuel&...Apostolic Church Nigeria Extols Governor Emmanuel's Feat Against Terrorism<br /><br />https://thekillerpunch.blogspot.com/2018/10/apostolic-church-nigeria-extols-governor-emmanuel-feat-against-terrorism.htmlbusitechnewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14453943658326566431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-50185498978508602482016-07-18T02:55:41.189-04:002016-07-18T02:55:41.189-04:00Thanks, Fr. Hart and Semi-Hookerian! This is all ...Thanks, Fr. Hart and Semi-Hookerian! This is all very interesting stuff. I did not know that about the Anglicans trying to share ministry with Lutherans in the Holy Land.<br /><br />I'll definitely add those books to my reading list.<br /><br />Thanks again!Megannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-33785266865247340422016-07-16T21:51:18.645-04:002016-07-16T21:51:18.645-04:00Very interesting is Hooker's analysis of Genev...Very interesting is Hooker's analysis of Geneva in his "Preface to them that seek (as they term it) the Reformation of the Laws and Orders Ecclesiastical in the Church of England", where, for instance, he says, of Calvin's device of a "standing ecclesiastical court" with "perpetual judges in that court to be their ministers", "This device I see not how the wisest at that time living could have bettered, if we consider what the present estate of Geneva did then require. For their bishop and his clergy being [...] departed; to choose in his room any other bishop had been a thing impossible" (II.4), but also says further (II.7), "But wise men are men, and the truth is truth. That which Calvin did for the establishment of his discipline, seemeth more commendable than that which he taught for the countenancing of it established." This seems to suggest an indefinitely protracted temporary solution, inadequately commended and defended and 'theoretized'. <br /><br />Stephen Neill writes of "the consecration of three 'superintendent moderators' as bishops for Scotland" in 1610, that "Archbishop Bancroft decided that, though these three men had previously had only presbyterian ordination, they need not first be ordained presbyters according to the Anglican rite. This consecration per saltum served as one of the precedents for what was done at the inauguration of the Church of South India in 1947" (Anglicanism (1958), ch. 6 [p. 150]). This seems to suggest how versions of that 'indefinitely protracted temporary solution' by Calvin could be wisely resolved at any time after 1541.<br /><br />A book I would recommend is, Arthur Geoffrey Dickens' The English Reformation (1964). Neill's Anglicanism is another, for both the English Reformation and its Anglican sequel (with lots of indications for interesting further reading and reference in its footnotes and bibliography - many of which useful works are scanned in the Internet Archive).<br /><br />Semi-Hookerian Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-77825830170089888492016-07-16T17:42:37.201-04:002016-07-16T17:42:37.201-04:00An attempt to share ministry with Lutherans in the...An attempt to share ministry with Lutherans in the Holy Land, in the 19th century, fell apart because the Anglicans assumed that the Lutherans would be willing to undergo episcopal ordination; which they weren't willing to do. The attempt was John Henry Newman's reason for leaving the Church of England, which indicates to me that he didn't seem to notice how it finally turned out (or the Lambeth Quadrilateral). As for Calvinism among some Anglicans, it is limited to certain theological matters that they embrace, but must exclude the Geneva Discipline. Anglicanism, however, is not a Calvinist body. The English reformation took on its own character. Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-75397391108691900872016-07-13T13:30:02.391-04:002016-07-13T13:30:02.391-04:00Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it! I've ...Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it! I've been slowly reading through your guides and articles. They've been a great help so far.<br /><br />Lutherans--particularly those in Germany and immigrants from there--pretty much seem to have lost their apostolic succession, with a few exceptions. There weren't really any bishops on Luther's side in Germany itself, so it's understandable that they did what was necessary. I was reading that Melanchthon definitely wished they could have bishops instead of the magistrates determining doctrine and church discipline. The problem is that these German Lutheran churches never thought to get their apostolic succession back, and largely due to Luther's overemphasis on the priesthood of believers. I'm sure English bishops would have been happy to ordain some Lutheran ministers properly as soon as the Reformation settled down, right? Based on the above patristic quotes, does this mean those Lutheran synods that lack apostolic succession have shut themselves outside the church Catholic?<br /><br />As for Calvin, this kind of goes back to why we revere these people. I know plenty of Anglicans who admire Calvin and consider themselves Calvinists. Why? Didn't the Puritans get all their nutty ideas from him? And again, if he threw the episcopacy out, then what is the point of considering Calvin a hero if he's rejected the church Catholic? (I guess I need to hurry up and read volume 8 of Schaff's work to find out more.)<br /><br />By the way, can you recommend a good history book on the English reformation that gets into the nitty gritty details? Schaff kind of stops at his own homeland. The English Reformation is a mere side note here and there.<br /><br />Thanks for putting up with my dumb questions!Megannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-50682545399730408132016-07-12T19:58:37.454-04:002016-07-12T19:58:37.454-04:00Luther didn't do anything to abolish episcopac...Luther didn't do anything to abolish episcopacy, but Calvin effectively did. Luther's courage in standing against Tetzel's outrageous indulgence was courage to the death, as he didn't expect to survive it. His stand on justification and on translating scripture into the venacular are areas where we agree. To this day Lutherans maintain episcopacy as they understand it, and Cranmer, wherever he might have been headed, represents no effort to abolish episcopacy, and he was the Archbishop. <br /><br />You may find answers to many of your questions by going theough our Laymen's Guide to the Thirty-nine Articles. The link is on this page up on the right hand side.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-91364174636289312102016-07-12T18:56:09.995-04:002016-07-12T18:56:09.995-04:00I have an honest to question to ask, in light of t...I have an honest to question to ask, in light of the above quote about submitting to the bishop. I've been struggling with this for a while, especially since I've finally hit volume 7 of historian Philip Schaff's church history series. When Luther did his split, he pretty much did away with the episcopacy. Sure, Rome had its own wrongs committed, but Luther went pretty far. What right did he have to replace bishops with earthly magistrates?<br /><br />As Anglicans, our hands look much cleaner, and yet we revere these early Reformers as heroes. Had Edward VI lived longer, and by extension Thomas Cranmer with him, it appears Cranmer might have himself succeeded in turning the Church of England into Presbyterians with Prayer Books. This mix of Reformed and Catholic makes Anglicanism look like one of Sid's Frankenstein toys in Toy Story. It's kind of both charming and weird to me, all at the same time.<br /><br />How do we justify venerating people as heroes who ended up disregarding so much of historical Christianity, and who refused to submit to any bishop? I realize the Reformers thought the Pope was Antichrist back then. Luther even thought the world would end in 100 years. Obviously, it didn't. Doesn't that make him not only a schismatic, but a false prophet? In which case, I'm not so sure his actions (especially his polemics) are so justified anymore.<br /><br />Please forgive me my questioning and searching. I'm new to being Anglican, and reading history books has both enlightened and confused me. How does Anglicanism work these issues out?Megannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-88598845429988723322016-07-11T16:19:23.297-04:002016-07-11T16:19:23.297-04:00There seems to me to be (in fact, if not in consci...There seems to me to be (in fact, if not in conscious intention) a sort of implicit discussion going on here with things like the 'Appeal to All Christian People' issued by the 1920 Lambeth Conference, and various aspects of the legacy of 'Kikuyu', and the formation of the Church of South India in 1947 and the responses to that (as, by the continuing Anglican Church of India in 1950 and the English Convocation in 1955). <br /><br />Would you consider addressing such matters explicitly (or indicating some place(s) where you, or others, have already conveniently done so)? <br /><br />With thanks for this latest post, in any case!<br /><br />Semi-Hookerian Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-54462160393510778332016-07-07T12:30:18.667-04:002016-07-07T12:30:18.667-04:00I think I addressed that: We don't have any bu...I think I addressed that: We don't have any burden to judge what they do. But Anglican polity is line with what St. Ignatius wrote, "...that all things may be secure and valid."Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-17947724536894372062016-07-07T12:07:17.303-04:002016-07-07T12:07:17.303-04:00If presbyter and bishop are the same in the New Te...If presbyter and bishop are the same in the New Testament, and only distinguished extra-Biblically, even if it was the Apostles who distinguished them, doesn't that still make the episcopate an Anglican <i>adiaphoron</i>? It may be a key part of our church order, but I don't know how our Articles of Religion would let us require it of other churches as an article of faith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com