tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post8720798350172887487..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Laymen's Guide to the Thirty-Nine ArticlesFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-72992175910071031522011-06-10T23:15:32.642-04:002011-06-10T23:15:32.642-04:00Well done Frs. Hart and Wells. Keep up the procla...Well done Frs. Hart and Wells. Keep up the proclamation of the <i>faith once delivered</i> as put forth in the Articles of Religion.<br /><br />It needs to be proclaimed, heard, and received... for the nourishment of the sheep and the building up of the Church.<br /><br />Kudos...Jack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-20396099416069482011-06-10T21:52:00.804-04:002011-06-10T21:52:00.804-04:00Thanks, Caedmon
DTThanks, Caedmon<br /><br />DTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-45992739068703510642011-06-10T18:52:05.751-04:002011-06-10T18:52:05.751-04:00Doubting Thomas at 2:46:
The book is online from ...Doubting Thomas at 2:46:<br /><br />The book is online from several sources, including Google Books: http://tinyurl.com/3npdjrg<br /><br />See the discussion on pp. 32 ff for the clarity you seek. It would appear to me from McGrath's summary that the Eastern Fathers were caught up in roughly the same sort of argument, divored from biblical considerations, which Fr. Wells mentions in his comments regarding the secular debate over determinism and free will.<br /><br />CaedmonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-54176674345113487862011-06-10T14:46:08.102-04:002011-06-10T14:46:08.102-04:00Anonymous at 9:53 am: I'm not so sure what you...<i>Anonymous at 9:53 am: I'm not so sure what you find ironic. McGrath's only point is that their view of free will, which they derived from pagan philosophy, made any discussion of justification as the West took it up a non-starter.</i><br /><br />If I misunderstood McGrath (or you), I apologize. What I found ironic is that he mentioned a group of Christians embracing a <i>pagan</i> theory of free will, when in the ante-Nicene period Christians were defending free will against the <i>pagans</i>. Perhaps my misunderstanding lies in mistaking "a <i>pagan theory</i> of free will"--which McGrath states the Eastern Christians were embracing--for the same 'free will' which the ante-Nicene fathers argued for against the pagan fatalists.<br /><br />DTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-79631968454740179552011-06-10T13:25:28.709-04:002011-06-10T13:25:28.709-04:00St. Nikao at 6:51 am: Absolutely.
Anonymous at 9:...St. Nikao at 6:51 am: Absolutely.<br /><br />Anonymous at 9:53 am: I'm not so sure what you find ironic. McGrath's only point is that their view of free will, which they derived from pagan philosophy, made any discussion of justification as the West took it up a non-starter.<br /><br />CaedmonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-27081592293435552912011-06-10T09:53:17.370-04:002011-06-10T09:53:17.370-04:00This is an interesting comment regarding McGrath&#...This is an interesting comment regarding McGrath's argument:<br /><br /><i>On of the striking features of that work is his argument that the Eastern church fathers were more or less in absentia during the discussions in the West over original sin, free will and justification, not so much because it was a Western discussion from which they were geographically and tempermentally distanced, but because their embrace of a pagan theory of free will made all of that moot for them.</i><br /><br />If I am reading this correctly, this argument of McGrath seems somewhat ironic given the uniform practice of the ante-Nicene fathers to argue <i>for</i> 'free will' against the <i>fatalism</i> of their <i>pagan</i> opponents.<br /><br />Doubting ThomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-75262854066120980352011-06-10T06:52:35.236-04:002011-06-10T06:52:35.236-04:00And - Thank you both for this explication. I am a...And - Thank you both for this explication. I am always blessed and helped reading your articles here. All blessings!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-23271539739510625282011-06-10T06:51:20.067-04:002011-06-10T06:51:20.067-04:00This is the very necessary 'Step One' in t...This is the very necessary 'Step One' in the steps to recovery in AA and Celebrate Recovery and other programs that help people with damaged souls (mind, will and emotions according to Dallas Willard) to re-order and rebuild their lives and regain internal integrity and communion with The One Who Has All Power. (Psalm 62:11) and Who is merciful and willing to aid us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-41972921726003798272011-06-10T02:59:12.756-04:002011-06-10T02:59:12.756-04:001) I agree with Steven Augustine wholeheartedly. ...1) I agree with Steven Augustine wholeheartedly. (And Steven, I've been trying to get ahold of you with no luck. Could you please e-mail me at cclittle777 at yahoo com? Thanks);<br /><br />2) I am curious, Fr. Hart, as to whether or not you are positing any kind of "theory" of free will in the second paragraph of your statement. An Orthodox acquaintance of mine thinks it is so, whereas I have argued that you are merely referring to the phenomenon of volition, that is, to the fact that we make real choices. Your rejection of <i>determinism</i> is clear, but it would appear that you are leaving room for a biblical predestination - whatever that turns out to be.<br /><br />I recently finished reading Alister McGrath's magisterial work on justification, <i>Iustitia Dei</i>. On of the striking features of that work is his argument that the Eastern church fathers were more or less <i>in absentia</i> during the discussions in the West over original sin, free will and justification, not so much because it was a Western discussion from which they were geographically and tempermentally distanced, but because their embrace of a <i>pagan theory of free will</i> made all of that moot for them. I therefore found Fr. Wells reference to the "pre-Socratics" interesting, as it seems to echo McGrath, but from the "other direction" as it were. As Augustinian soteriology was irrelevant to the Greeks, so "the debate which goes back to the pre-Socratics and still entertains secular speculative thinkers is simply irrelevant to the issue of Article X."<br /><br />But I happen to think these matters are of upmost importance. If one does not get the matter of the will right, there is a strong chance he might not get the Gospel right. How many times have we heard the awful stories, emanating from places where Semipelagianism runs rampant, about people who answer "I did thus and so" or "I didn't do thus and so" or "I've tried to be a good person" when asked the question, "When you die, why should god let you into heaven"?<br /><br />CaedmonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-51799709396423651692011-06-09T16:28:05.176-04:002011-06-09T16:28:05.176-04:00Thanks for this post, Fr. Hart!
Luther's own ...Thanks for this post, Fr. Hart!<br /><br />Luther's own book "Bondage of the Will" is instructive reading, as well as the canons and decrees of the Council of Orange in 529. <br /><br />I for one think that traditional Anglicanism is roundly and soundly entrenched in an Augustinian framework, and flirting with Semi-Pelagianism can only dilute the strength of our Articles.<br /><br />I know our EO Brethren cringe at the West's supposed preoccupation with original sin, but it's the only backdrop I see that makes the good news so good.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Steven Augustine<br />An ACC LaymanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com