tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post8630971774467671905..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: I won't say "I told you so"Fr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-51268630797071771222009-11-18T01:00:16.516-05:002009-11-18T01:00:16.516-05:00Canon Tallis wrote, "Ever since the Princess ...Canon Tallis wrote, "Ever since the Princess Royal stepped on me in Santa Fe a long time ago, this poor peasant has learned not to be surprised at who turns up besides you at a reception, a bar or a pub."<br /><br />Well, he's got me beat. The closest I ever got to being stepped on by a Pricess was trimming the bushes in front of an Irish country mansion along with a Princess of Wuerttemburg. But she was too light on her feet to step on me, even when she asked me to get the high branches. And we discussed architectural history, not ecclesiology.<br /><br />Life does, indeed, turn up some odd situations.<br /><br />John A. Hollister+<br />"ousidag"John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-15051757182479943752009-11-18T00:35:39.072-05:002009-11-18T00:35:39.072-05:00Thank you for defending me, Father Hart. I really ...Thank you for defending me, Father Hart. I really don't blame Mark. Life does very strange things to some of us and we end up finding ourselves it situations we would never have imagined. Ever since the Princess Royal stepped on me in Santa Fe a long time ago, this poor peasant has learned not to be surprised at who turns up besides you at a reception, a bar or a pub. <br /><br />And, Mark, I never implied that i thought them knowledgeable; only that they had the social rank to know something about the mores of their society. Actually I could tell you much worse tales and back them up with newspaper clippings that would horrify you (I hope), but why bother. You do not want to hear Rome criticized while I would prefer that there were no reason for anyone, including myself, to be able to do so. The funny thing is that the sins and scandals of any of us seem to have a pattern of being blamed on all of us as Christians and Catholics. I hope that I am no more critical or forgiving of Rome than I am of any cleric in the Continuum or even establishment Anglicanism. What I would like to be able to say is that it is entirely self evident how much we love and care for each other.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-7088706578622585282009-11-17T21:11:04.013-05:002009-11-17T21:11:04.013-05:00Mark VA
It seems you do not travel in the most kn...Mark VA<br /><br />It seems you do not travel in the most knowledgeable circles; and that is no cause to castigate those who have contacts that you do not. That is simply how it is.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-40058994570337130312009-11-17T20:14:10.506-05:002009-11-17T20:14:10.506-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Cannon Tallis:
A cou...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Cannon Tallis:<br /><br />A countessa told you this? Must be nice to mingle with the hoi oligoi. <br /><br />I usually travel steerage only.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-11503528418590861542009-11-17T11:42:22.213-05:002009-11-17T11:42:22.213-05:00Mark,
The validity of the comments on this blog a...Mark,<br /><br />The validity of the comments on this blog are evidence of "perfect freedom" for which we pray daily. As Anglicans, we look, we see, we say and if anything should be moderated it is the behaviour of the Roman Church in terms of the teaching of Holy Scripture and the Church of the first five centuries. <br /><br />At an episcopal consecration I was at over a decade ago, a very lovely Roman countess complained to the new bishop about the scandalous state of the American Church because Roman parents actually allow their children to notify the police of their abuse by Roman clerics. That, she assured all of us would never be allowed in Rome. Unfortunately she was probably correct, but that is part of the problem, isn't it.<br /><br />Various European governments have threatened to charge some of our politicians and military with violations of our law. If they turned their attention to matters closer to home, they really might be of more use. The Ryan report, you know.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-37185868305546491152009-11-17T05:14:46.301-05:002009-11-17T05:14:46.301-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Father Hart:
At best...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart:<br /><br />At best, you seem to have a very provincial view of the global state of affairs in the Roman Catholic Church. <br /><br />My point is rhetorical, since few of us are expected to be knowledgeable to that degree. The discussion on this blog on this subject would acquire greater validity, if such broad characterizations of the Roman Catholic Church were moderated.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-65207145619995263092009-11-17T00:24:43.480-05:002009-11-17T00:24:43.480-05:00Secretly married? I remember a time about thirty y...Secretly married? I remember a time about thirty years ago when the Roman archbishop of San Francisco discovered that he had a number of priests who were not so secretly married. I seem to remember that it was at least eight in number, but it could have been more or less. Quite a few people knew including a number in the various parishes until the archbishop finally found out.<br /><br />It made a marvelous story for the Examiner and much more wholesome than many of the stories which came out of the archdiocese. But most of them would illustrate Father Hart's statement.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-37426717496730525192009-11-16T23:43:53.372-05:002009-11-16T23:43:53.372-05:00Over there? Where? Africa? Asia?
Frankly, if I ha...Over there? Where? Africa? Asia?<br /><br />Frankly, if I have stated certain things as fact it may be related to my having taken the time to do some research-something that may not be so odd for a Contributing editor of a religious magazine, a one time journalist for another Christian news magazine, and someone whose circle includes people "in the know." Believe me, some of those "celibate" priests in some of those places are secretly married, a not so unusual approach.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-37601763876360009862009-11-16T17:30:42.778-05:002009-11-16T17:30:42.778-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Father Hart:
The pre...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart:<br /><br />The prevailing winds over there are somewhat different from the prevailing winds in our country. Some of the issues you're familiar with either don't exist there at all, or exist in different degrees. On the other hand, they have projects and challenges we don't. <br /><br />I think this discussion in general, and many particular points you make regarding my entire Church, would acquire greater validity and depth if they were more clearly placed in their proper cultural context. Global statements about "the state of the Roman Catholic Church" are not always easy to make, something even many of my co-religionists often forget. <br /><br />Few people have that kind of a perspective. I, on occasion, only catch a glimpse of it.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-11531345869139204092009-11-16T00:02:31.840-05:002009-11-16T00:02:31.840-05:00I wonder which Anglicans are you talking about?
I...<i>I wonder which Anglicans are you talking about?</i><br /><br />I thought our website made that clear.<br /><br /><i>How many of these young men do you think will become the pathological cases you've listed in your previous posts? How many do you think will graduate?</i><br /><br />I suggest serious prayers for each and every one of them. But, this does not answer the prevailing winds of the last several years.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-15067642711367294052009-11-14T19:42:37.277-05:002009-11-14T19:42:37.277-05:00From the Roman Catholic/Traditionalist perspective...From the Roman Catholic/Traditionalist perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart:<br /><br />You say that the "RC system does not work, and Anglicans do not need to buy it for themselves". Since Anglicans seem to sail on a stormy sea of acronyms, each one representing some kind of past disagreement, difference of opinion, or some other issue, I wonder which Anglicans are you talking about?<br /><br />Since you claim to know a lot about RC seminaries, here is a link to an incoming freshmen class from an RC seminary. How many of these young men do you think will become the pathological cases you've listed in your previous posts? How many do you think will graduate?<br /><br />http://www.wsd.diecezja.tarnow.pl/galeria.php?section=2008.11.30%20-%20Ob%B3%F3czyny%20roku%20IIIMark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-3833420036964755962009-11-14T16:35:10.092-05:002009-11-14T16:35:10.092-05:00Mark VA wrote:
The problems you describe (and fro...Mark VA wrote:<br /><br /><i>The problems you describe (and from my perspective, sometimes vigorously exaggerate), are like corrosion spots on a car. Where they are discovered, sooner or later, they will be fixed, or a part will have to be replaced. This is the truly painful cost of living in this world.</i><br /><br />Sorry, butI think 800 years plus is enough time to remove the spots.<br /><br /><i>However, to take a localized problem, and speak of it as global in nature, is a mistake.<br />For example, you say that the RC Church has a "severe clergy shortage...Here you grasp at sometimes local, but not necessarily global, problems, and elevate them beyond their locality. </i><br /><br />True. The local problem is one priest per 1600 lay people; in Nigeria it is one priest per 1.6 million lay people. But, in Anglicanism, with married priests, the ratio is quite workable.<br /><br /><i>Even within our country, which seems to be your context here, such a broad statement will not hold."</i><br /><br />I wish I could agree with you; but, I simply know too much. Look at any picture of a graduating class from a RC seminary, men about to be ordained or recently ordained. Within about ten years half of them will have been laiticized. The RC system does not work, and Anglicans do not need to buy it for themselves.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-9655663219103467022009-11-14T07:25:09.213-05:002009-11-14T07:25:09.213-05:00From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:
Father...From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart:<br /><br />Thank you for acknowledging that "side by side with many social misfit RC priests, there are some truly holy men who live the kind of lives that exemplify the charism of celibacy".<br /><br />The problems you describe (and from my perspective, sometimes vigorously exaggerate), are like corrosion spots on a car. Where they are discovered, sooner or later, they will be fixed, or a part will have to be replaced. This is the truly painful cost of living in this world. <br /><br />If one's perspective is broad enough, it can be seen that different sets of strengths and problems exist within the Church, depending on the local culture. However, to take a localized problem, and speak of it as global in nature, is a mistake. <br /><br />For example, you say that the RC Church has a "severe clergy shortage", and "has created a priesthood in which alcoholism, addiction to pornography, and a large proportion of attrition have all become the norm". Here you grasp at sometimes local, but not necessarily global, problems, and elevate them beyond their locality. Even within our country, which seems to be your context here, such a broad statement will not hold. It is also telling that issues within the Roman Catholic Church (both Her strengths and weaknesses) that exist in other cultures, are beyond your radar. <br /><br />Moderation seems to be lacking, and that, in my opinion, detracts from what would otherwise be constructive criticism from a friend.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66361718473356231272009-11-13T20:13:31.243-05:002009-11-13T20:13:31.243-05:00St. Worm
Fr. Wells knows the difference between g...St. Worm<br /><br />Fr. Wells knows the difference between genuine Calvinists and five pointers. Technically, we cannot have any of either, because real Calvinists, and the five pointers too, would have to believe in such things as the Geneva Discipline, and would have to reject episcopacy.<br /><br />Mark VA:<br /><br />Rome's impossible terms for unity include innovations in doctrine and polity that are based on error, and that expand error further. Mandatory celibacy as an imposed discipline is certainly different from St. Paul's teaching that it is strictly charismatic, and from Christ's own teaching that is only for those who can receive it.<br /><br />This RC error compounds error by relegating those who enter into the sacrament of matrimony as belonging to an inferior spiritual class. Furthermore, it gives sexual perverts and predators a place to hide (which is mentioned long ago in the Augsburg Confession-not a new problem) while eliminating the very kind of men St. Paul told Timothy to look for. It has created a severe clergy shortage, even though the RCC requires every member to make confession, and has no General Confession. It has hindered evangelism by this shortage. It has created a priesthood in which alcoholism, addiction to pornography, and a large proportion of attrition have all become the norm.<br /><br />Frankly, it is a self-destructive and just plain stupid policy, continued because of the unreasonable cruelty of old men even though, as experiments go, its failure is so damn obvious.<br /><br />Yes, side by side with many social misfit RC priests, there are some truly holy men who live the kind of lives that exemplify the charism of celibacy. And, you know what? We Anglicans have such genuine celibate priests too.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-29121264259015143282009-11-13T16:01:33.566-05:002009-11-13T16:01:33.566-05:00Fr. Wells,
I appreciate your candour, and in no w...Fr. Wells,<br /><br />I appreciate your candour, and in no way wanted to come across as trying to corner you, so I thank you for answering me with gentleness. <br /><br />It's good to know that you don't elevate the definition of Justification to the level of say a Christological definition. And I'm happy that you wouldn't anathematize those for what you would deem "defective" views. As I've said before, you and I are amazingly close in these matters. <br /><br />What's funny is that I didn't think the ACC had any Calvinists (5 pointers! unless I'm wrongly lumping you with Sproul, Horton, and Piper) within her hallowed halls. You would be the first one I know of!<br /><br />Blessings to you.<br /><br />St. Worm<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />St. WormAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-7539259177697214592009-11-13T10:50:21.192-05:002009-11-13T10:50:21.192-05:00Mark,
The problem with the Roman Church is that i...Mark,<br /><br />The problem with the Roman Church is that it can not divide the Church from the institution of the Papacy and as any honest church historian knows the papacy is much later than Church itself and from the beginning at odds with it. Those of us, and I admit they are few, who know Rome both from the parish and diocesean scene in the United States and also from the curial scene in the Vatican, see not one but two churches with one being quite as objectionable as TEO. But few Romans see that while those that do frequently try to pretend that it does not exist.<br /><br />Our standard for Rome is the same that we would set for ourselves, Holy Scripture as interpreted by the earliest bishops and Catholic fathers and the clear teaching of the General Councils. By that standard, Rome has set impossible standards by rejecting what Holy Scripture teaches but instead substituting myths with their origin in early heresies for that doctrine.<br /><br />I know that many of my fellow Anglicans are impressed with Rockette glamour of the big ceremonies at the Vatican, but, having been there, I understand what that costs in hard money extracted from millions who need the gospel and will never have the chance of a solemn pontifical liturgy in one of the papal chapels. Perhaps they imagine themselves in all of that scarlet silk and lace or vestments from the late 16th century which one sees in the postings on The New Liturgical Movement. I don't. I look at the difference at what with all its failings that Anglican Christianity has managed to accomplish in the making of the best of modern civilization and the quest for better and freer lives for the greatest number of human beings. Perhaps you can understand that; perhaps not.<br /><br />Veriword: "restu"<br />Veriword: "parderi"Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-75227483149312399382009-11-13T07:23:10.536-05:002009-11-13T07:23:10.536-05:00From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:
Father...From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart, from your "6:19 PM" post:<br /><br />Regarding mandatory celibacy, you wrote: "we must refuse to be in communion with them on their own impossible terms". A reasonable interpretation of your words is that you are calling this discipline an impossible (for all Anglicans?) term; <br /><br />Regarding the "seat of division" question, you wrote: "Also, I see Rome as the seat of division, not unity." Again, a reasonable interpretation is that you're talking about the Church - we Roman Catholics encounter such verbiage from some of our fundamentalist and progressive brothers and sisters in Christ, and they usually mean the Church and Her teachings, not just the Papacy; <br /><br />Regarding the assertion that Rome, now assumed to mean Papacy, "offers unity at the price of total submission": a Greek Orthodox friend once felt the need to assure me that Popes really are dictators. To me, such statements mean that the person making them has absolutely no idea what a dictator, or a dictatorship, are, and is making poorly thought out comparisons.<br /><br />Since you closed quoting Martin Luther, it would be interesting to know what he would say about the current state of Christian affairs.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-59762487030723585682009-11-13T00:09:23.691-05:002009-11-13T00:09:23.691-05:00MarkVA wrote:
Let's just say that all the Ort...MarkVA wrote:<br /><br /><i>Let's just say that all the Orthodox Churches are "free" of Rome, and leave it at that.</i><br /><br />Rome does not offer unity, but only requires submission.<br /><br /><i>To call the discipline of mandatory celibacy for Roman Catholic priests an impossible term...</i><br /><br />I do not understand the phrase "impossible term," nor can I even begin to speculate where you got it from.<br /><br />I do know that a discipline of mandatory celibacy is a failed experiment, and so does everybody else except for those who refuse to see the obvious. Celibacy is a charism, and to impose a charism as a discipline is ridiculous. Frankly, Rome's destructive polity and failed experiment in this matter of imposing a charism as a discipline, is like the store front Pentecostals requiring everybody to have the charism of speaking in tongues. It is the <i>same</i> error.<br /><br /><i>To state that the Roman Catholic Church "has a 1,000 year history of causing division, and creating heretical innovations", and is "the seat of division", sounds like a condemnation of an entire Church.</i><br /><br />Did I say "the Roman Catholic Church" or the Papacy? The Papacy made a ridiculous demand rejected by the other Patriarchates (still rejected to this day) in 1054. 500 years later, they botched the opportunity to reform their errors, and caused the other big division. Seems like a strange manifestation for "the seat of unity."<br /><br /><i>However, to try to configure Church doctrine so as to conform it to every opinion, desire, or interpretation, is to make doctrine itself meaningless</i><br /><br />How about conforming doctrine to the Bible via universal Consensus and Antiquity? Instead, Rome has compounded its errors, and offers unity at the price of total submission. <br /><br />To Rome's offer/demand I say no: "Here I stand; I can do no other."<br /><br /><i>But in our discussions, let's remember that much more unites us, than divides us.</i><br /><br />That is why polite debate is by no means a waste of time. How else can we advance toward unity with integrity?Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-17362635682382028932009-11-12T18:18:44.261-05:002009-11-12T18:18:44.261-05:00Since we have talked about the pro's and con&#...Since we have talked about the pro's and con's of the Roman Church here is a telling issue that all should be aware of. For me Rome is too much like the Episcopal Church in the USA. This link reinforces that notion in my mind. ANd for what it's worth as Fr. Hart pointed out I NEVER supported the solicitation of any deal regarding absorption from Rome so I do not feel the comments here are out of line.<br /><br />http://view.email.conservativehq.com/?j=fe581573716d0c7e7d17&m=febc1574726d0275&ls=fdf712717364017972127575&l=fe9a15797167057d76&s=fe8d1c717265037870&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe1c15757c6d0c7e701374&r=0<br /><br />Alan<br /><br />veriword: sorite haha!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-44243551861175042032009-11-12T17:16:16.462-05:002009-11-12T17:16:16.462-05:00"And I agree with Richard Hooker that it is n..."And I agree with Richard Hooker that it is not necessary to have a correct view of Justification in order to be justified. "<br /><br />Well, that's a relief. :-)<br /><br />I guess James, the brother of our Lord, can breath easier as well, since it was he who said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:<br />"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only"<br /><br />Doubting ThomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-57354576531083825922009-11-12T15:04:10.437-05:002009-11-12T15:04:10.437-05:00From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:
Father...From the Roman/Traditionalist perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart:<br /><br />To say that the diversity among the Eastern Orthodox fosters "freedom from autocratic and foreign interference" is very problematic. For example, I'm sure we don't need to discourse here on the recent experience of the Russian Orthodox Church with totalitarianism. Let's just say that all the Orthodox Churches are "free" of Rome, and leave it at that;<br /><br />To call the discipline of mandatory celibacy for Roman Catholic priests an impossible term, point to the admittedly scandalous failures as the justification, yet to be completely silent about the vast majority of priests who did and do meet this "impossible" term, doesn't make for a balanced argument; <br /><br />To state that the Roman Catholic Church "has a 1,000 year history of causing division, and creating heretical innovations", and is "the seat of division", sounds like a condemnation of an entire Church. It is understood that not all doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church will be accepted by those outside Her fold. However, to try to configure Church doctrine so as to conform it to every opinion, desire, or interpretation, is to make doctrine itself meaningless;<br /><br />I see many valuable insights, perspectives, and experiences Classical Anglicanism can offer on the global arena. I too appreciate a vigorous discussion, even if sometimes it takes on an "ex cathedra" gravitas. This may be a possibly subconscious desire to posses the consciously rejected Papal infallibility - that is, infallibility envy (OK, just kidding). But in our discussions, let's remember that much more unites us, than divides us.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66792130254924784732009-11-12T15:00:57.061-05:002009-11-12T15:00:57.061-05:00St Worm: At end of the day, I stand with John Pip...St Worm: At end of the day, I stand with John Piper, RC Sproul, Michael Horton, <br />R. Scott Clark, JIPacker, Fitz Allison et al., in the definition of Justification. Piper's book "The Future of Justification" is splendid and represents my view entirely. I would only differ slightly in that I regard those who do not yet share this view as just poorly catechised, not really heretical. And I agree with Richard Hooker that it is not necessary to have a correct view of Justification in order to be justified. <br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-65377593038126784472009-11-12T14:21:05.282-05:002009-11-12T14:21:05.282-05:00"Their diversity is a sign of freedom from au..."Their diversity is a sign of freedom from autocratic and foreign interference."<br /><br />I think that freedom (the EO enjoys) is also a bulwark against the transmission of heresy by way of 'one earthly ruler' or a magisterium that cannot allow for proper dissent.<br /><br />AlanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-5816205013871727292009-11-12T14:13:40.869-05:002009-11-12T14:13:40.869-05:00Don't get me wrong. I am not out to beat up o...Don't get me wrong. I am not out to beat up on the EO's. That tradition has much that even a curmudgeon like myself is bound to admire. I think of that everytime I sing the three great Easter hymns by St John of Damascus in our Hymnal. I have a couple of icons recently purchased from the Shrine of St Photious which will soon be hung in our sacristy. I can go on and on and on about the merits (a very Western term EO's do not appreciate) of that tradition. Our recent banquet speaker was a real hoot. I rarely laugh, but me made me chuckle slightly.<br /><br />My concern, which this thread has deepened, is that Continuing Anglicans, after rejecting the Roman proposals, find themselves in a "rebound romance" with a dubious suitor. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not a good theological principle.<br /><br />At the recent assemblage of ACNA, Metropolitan Jonah delivered himself of a denunciation of something he called "Calvinism." That seems exceedingly odd to me, as he was addressing people from a tradition which has been almost exclusively Arminian since the mid 17th century. His audience was predominately of a "broad evangelical" sort, whose theology is derived more from Rick Warren and "church growth" literature than from the Institutes. John Calvin would surely have found that meeting deeply appalling. So the Metropolitan's tirade against "Calvinism" makes as much sense as me going before his people and ranting against the evils of Iconoclasm.<br /><br />But I strongly suspect that when the good man inveighs against "Calvinism," he is thinking of the theological heritage of John Jewel, John Whitgift, Richard Hooker, as well as all their theological ancestors and descendants.<br /><br />If the EO's are offended by our noticing their jurisdictional disarray, that's tough. When they clean up their act, we will stop noticing the mess. And this claim of "unity in the faith" is hardly convincing, when we observe contradictory practices on matters of faith. Some jurisdictions require chrismation for converts from Anglicanism. Confirmation by an Anglican bishop was not acceptable. (Who is still mad about AC? Can you get mad over EO Chrismation?) Other jurisdictions require Baptism from scratch. If an Anglican priest getting "ordained" by an RC bishop bothers you, are you willing to become an Anabaptist to satisfy tender EO consciences? So the claim of "unity in the faith" rings hollow.<br /><br />Since I know my Ordinations as Deacon and Priest are valid, I could not in good conscience accept a Roman ordination. Since I know my Baptism and Confirmation are valid, I could not submit to an EO Baptism or Chrismation. Simply a matter of consistency.<br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-92224394114157512062009-11-12T12:54:31.883-05:002009-11-12T12:54:31.883-05:00Ok, I admit that "I told you so" was a l...Ok, I admit that "I told you so" was a little childish - but no more so than others who accuse me of being "ungracious", "mean spirited" or "anti-Roman" for simply stating that the Apostolic Constitution is about conversion not about reconciliation?! <br /><br />It seems such people are obviously not Catholic in order to come to the conclusion that this is the "best offer" Rome could've made! No Catholic could possibly accept denying the efficacy of their Sacramental life?!<br /><br />If you think I'm wrong, ask a Roman Catholic who worships in an Anglican Church to accept re-Confirmation and note the response!Canon Jerome Lloyd OSJVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10764146635659770019noreply@blogger.com