tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post8423291433379317073..comments2024-02-04T15:10:18.485-05:00Comments on The Continuum: The Corinthian ProblemFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-88095027221501522692009-05-31T01:51:38.520-04:002009-05-31T01:51:38.520-04:00Thank you for these links, Fr. Kirby, which are mo...Thank you for these links, Fr. Kirby, which are most helpful. I am especially gratified to read some of the writings of St. Symeon the New Theologian.<br /><br />Fr. Robert WhitakerUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06861153437618279160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-80088804373399203552009-05-24T10:10:53.804-04:002009-05-24T10:10:53.804-04:00St Symeon the New Theologian, also a great Doctor ...St Symeon the New Theologian, also a great Doctor of the Church, went in almost the opposite direction, if I remember correctly. He seemed to think that the relative lack of signs was in fact due to insufficient faith and fervour, but that the gifts had not properly ceased anyway, and could not during the Church Age. He rejected the idea of religion without conscious personal experience of God as well.<br /><br />For an intersting overview of various Eastern Orthodox perspectives see:<br /><br />http://silouanthompson.net/2008/08/05/personal-experience/<br /><br />and<br /><br />http://www.workofchrist.com/theosis/experience.htmFr Matthew Kirbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14386951752314314095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-83202080388861855172009-05-24T09:34:37.229-04:002009-05-24T09:34:37.229-04:00Amen Deacon Steve!
What was said awhile back and ...Amen Deacon Steve!<br /><br />What was said awhile back and raised some hackles about the charismata being "normal", on consideration leads me to consider the dofference between "normal" and "normative". What is "normative" is expected to be present and its absence is considered abnormal or deficient. Of the Spiritual gifts, St. Paul asks repeatedly. "Do all ...?" expecting a negative response.<br /><br />On the other hand, what is "normal" is simply that which falls within the expected range of unsurprising happenings. Perhaps Sandra hit upon it in noting a transitional point in perception -- from a time when the miraculous was seen as normative, and the time when it was seen as merely normal. The insistence upon "sign gifts" as marking the reality of the Faith had passed and should nor be resurrected, but miracles have never been outside the realm of possibilities to those who trust in God, and, indeed, have never been lacking in the life of the Church. I could testify to miracleS I have witnessed, including one now ongoing. Such things cannot be demanded or insisted upon, neither should they cause an undue degree of surprise. God has not ceased to use His creative power, has not withheld His gifts, has not hidden His presence -- but, truly, we need none of that to know Him as real.<br /><br />edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-81569893779147053172009-05-23T23:47:27.714-04:002009-05-23T23:47:27.714-04:00I think this whole thing can be summed up in one s...I think this whole thing can be summed up in one sentence.<br /><br />Do everything out of Love (charity).Fr. Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16869676716891199486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-36372968377242348612009-05-23T21:45:39.647-04:002009-05-23T21:45:39.647-04:00I think this sermon might be the marker of the poi...I think this sermon might be the marker of the point in Church history where miraculous healings, etc, stopped being 'the norm'. He who told me this (the historical point) reads this blog and might (or might not) want to put in his own twopenny worth.<br /><br />Of course, creation was a miracle, and so is the continual preservation of all life and all things (which, if you take a timeless view of God, is every bit as much 'creation' as the original bringing of all things into being).Sandra McCollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-91033915573109388392009-05-23T19:14:52.823-04:002009-05-23T19:14:52.823-04:00Thanks, Sandra.
I asked a friend to scan the pag...Thanks, Sandra. <br />I asked a friend to scan the page for me, since I also couldn't locate the text, but you beat him to it.<br /><br />Gregory's statement is a wonderful one if it be not so taken as to cover all situations. He himself did not do so, as he himself testified in other places to having witnessed miracles of healing. I'd agree with Fr. Hart that this passage is not a dogmatic statement that signs and wonders could no longer occur, but it is a powerful testiminy that they are not necessary for there to be powerful faith, as the faith itself is a yet greater miracle.<br /><br />Amen and amen!<br /><br />edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-58568747147631842032009-05-23T19:07:46.054-04:002009-05-23T19:07:46.054-04:00(Sandra, we thought we had your e-mail address. Pl...(Sandra, we thought we had your e-mail address. Please e-mail one of the three of us. My e-mail address is in my profile)<br /><br />"My brethren, these signs do not follow us..." As long as we do not make a doctrine out of anyone's historical observation, or observation of what was to them current events. Even in the Book of Acts some of "these signs" (obviously Gregory was drawing from Mark) do not follow <I>most</I> of the believers in the young Church. They followed the Apostles and a few others, like Philip. The Catholic Tradition has never made a doctrine about when, where and how God may act.<br /><br />The lesson from I Corinthians is to make sure our motivation leads outward: "Follow after charity." With charity everything becomes safe, with or without any signs. Without charity nothing is safe, with or without any signs.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-16912519063636640932009-05-23T18:31:34.401-04:002009-05-23T18:31:34.401-04:00Himmel! The veriword is 'bless'. Perhaps the veriw...Himmel! The veriword is 'bless'. Perhaps the veriword generator doesn't realise that it's actually a word.Sandra McCollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-44889597425900675022009-05-23T18:30:48.285-04:002009-05-23T18:30:48.285-04:00Indeed, Fr D, it jumped out at me, too.
"My breth...Indeed, Fr D, it jumped out at me, too.<br /><br />"My brethren, these signs do not follow us. Do we, then, not believe? Nay, the truth is, these things were needful when the Church was young. That she might grow by the increase of the faithful, she needed to be nourished with miracles. … Hence Paul saith of tongues: Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. <br /><br />We hae a deeper matter of thought concerning signs and mighty works. It is the work of the holy Church to do every day spiritually that which the Apostles then did in a bodily manner. When her priests, armed with hej power of absolution, do stretch forth their hands unto believers, and forbid evil spirits to dwell any longer in their souls, what is it they do but cast out devilw? When Christ's faithful people themselves give up the language of their old life, and speak the wonderful works of God, the glory and power of their Maker, telling of them with all their strength, what is it they do then, but speak with new tongues? When any Christian by his exhortation charmeth the wickedness out of his neighbour's heart, what is it that he then doeth but take up serpents? …<br /><br />And indeed, such miracles as these are the greatest miracles just because they are spiritual; the greatest, for they bring health, not to the dying body, but to the immortal soul."<br /><br />Hope I included the bits you would have wanted to share.Sandra McCollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-22517050158298692132009-05-23T09:43:17.919-04:002009-05-23T09:43:17.919-04:00For those who augment the Daily Offices using the ...For those who augment the Daily Offices using the "Anglican Breviary" may find the Homily by St. Gregory the Pope for the Saturday within the octave of the Ascension of interest regarding certain gifts. (Eadem Homilia 29)<br />Eminently qualified whereas he is included as one of the four great Doctors by both East and West.<br /><br />"My brethren, these signs do not follow us". and "We have a deeper matter of thought concerning signs and mighty works."<br /><br />Unfortunately I do nat have a scanner nor could I find the Homily on the web, but if any possess the Breviary do check it out.<br />FWIW,<br />Fr. D.Fr. D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03739425393783126647noreply@blogger.com