tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post8243645393031634420..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Diagnosis of Dr.TigheFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-10369301216346250602010-07-14T18:26:04.442-04:002010-07-14T18:26:04.442-04:00I can attest that the Former Anglican blog does no...I can attest that the Former Anglican blog does not allow any dissent. They call you names and get really angry.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12686622941862667157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-7533593248282239622010-05-31T00:18:31.817-04:002010-05-31T00:18:31.817-04:00This bull, I repeat, was re-iterated on a near inf...<i>This bull, I repeat, was re-iterated on a near infallible basis by the former prefect of the Holy Office, one Josef Alois Ratzinger...</i><br /><br />Actually, the point was to say that the Bull was not on the level of dogma and could be rescinded.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-80652751539867556452010-05-30T22:09:49.648-04:002010-05-30T22:09:49.648-04:00The suggestion was made that Dr Tighe's presen...The suggestion was made that Dr Tighe's presence on the 'former anglican' blog might raise the intellectual level. No way! When one multiplies and number by zero, one gets zero. 'Gegen der Dunnheit streifen die Goetter selbst vergebens!'<br />In all this, I have yet to see a coherent reason for the TAC/ACA to swim the Tiber---just downstream from the Cloaca Maxima. Do these people really know what they are getting into---and dragging their layfolk into?<br />Any casual review of the history and practice of the Roman Church, past and present should cause people to run screaming into the hills. History tells it like it is. The Magisterium is most unstable, really. Tolle lege.<br />For the past month, I have been carefully re-reading a set of Arthur Lowndes' magistral work, 'Vindication of Anglican Orders', on the Bull 'Apostolicae Curae', which was re-itereated just a couple of decades ago. If one reads carefully what Leo XIII had to say in this bull, one must, using leo's criteria, entertain the thought that Rome has not had valid orders and sacraments for ceturies, if such ever did <br />exist---by Leo's criteria, I say. <br />So, do these people even grasp what they're dealing with? They are throwing away a reasonable certainty of valid orders and sacraments for something that may be quite dubious---if one accepts Leo XIII's thesis of what constitutes valid orders. Now, some will say that the Bull of Leo XIII no longer represents the position of the Roman Church. This bull, I repeat, was re-iterated on a near infallible basis by the former prefect of the Holy Office, one Josef Alois Ratzinger during the reign of Papa Wojtyla himself. Rome is stuck with this shoddy piece of work and that's that. Whatever Rome ever said about Anglican Orders and Sacraments blew back and destroyed Roman claims of any kind. They should have known better than to fool with our great scholars back then.<br />Enough on this head. Tolle lege, fratres, tolle lege.<br /><br />In +,<br />BentonBenton H Marderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15859682977804992245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-41459506985559757112010-02-24T17:02:14.637-05:002010-02-24T17:02:14.637-05:00Father John:
Yes, Cardinal Mindszenty, the events...Father John:<br /><br />Yes, Cardinal Mindszenty, the events of 1956 - a heroic and tragic figure, in an evil time.<br /><br />Caucescu, a study in tyranny and megalomania. <br /><br />Stalin, and his red legions.<br /><br />The mendacity of that evil system - it denied the existence of that, which it desired to posses.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-31304069456010569122010-02-23T23:12:33.966-05:002010-02-23T23:12:33.966-05:00And lest we forget, the Romanian Orthodox Church s...And lest we forget, the Romanian Orthodox Church suffered right up to the end of the Warsaw Pact with Chacescu ordering ancient monasteries and churches demolished well into the 1980's.<br /><br />Remember Cardinal Mindzentsy, and the Soviet repression in Hungary?<br /><br />It was a scary and frightening time to live through.<br /><br />Double Eagle to Red Flag, and back again.<br /><br />It was during this period that Stalin, when told the Pope would be displeased at a particular Soviet action was reputed to have said, "The Pope, how many divisions does he have?"Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-14686446709062990942010-02-23T22:47:13.643-05:002010-02-23T22:47:13.643-05:00Mark VA:
Frankly, yes, it seems like empty triump...Mark VA:<br /><br />Frankly, yes, it seems like empty triumphalist boasting. And, when I say Solidarity, I mean with a big "S"-the movement that became the dominant political party. <br /><br />Of course, I am all for praying as you suggest.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66504234532026727002010-02-23T19:25:12.599-05:002010-02-23T19:25:12.599-05:00Father Hart:
The Russian Orthodox Church took the...Father Hart:<br /><br />The Russian Orthodox Church took the brunt of this evil. It's truly a testament to the tenacity of faith of many Russians that the Russian Orthodox Church survived at all. I'll cite a few of the facts and statistics from just the early years of this plague:<br /><br />In 1921 Lenin issued an order that all those who oppose the confiscation of Church property be show tried and executed, in "very large numbers". In just the first year under this "law", 16 Orthodox bishops and about 3000 Orthodox priests and religious were executed.<br /><br />In the next few years of this "law", 130 Orthodox bishops, and over 45,000 Orthodox priests, religious, and laity were executed, using various, sometimes extremely cruel, methods.<br /><br />On the RC side, from 1200 churches and 400 priests in 1919, only 2 churches and 2 priests remained in that entire country in 1942. The RC bishops and priests were show tried, executed (120 RC priests were executed), or deported. <br /><br />This evil was to continue for over seventy years - its methods varied, but the goal always was to uproot God and religion from human, especially childrens', consciousness.<br /><br />Father Hart, I don't harp on Church cohesiveness for any RC triumphalist reasons, or to score points for my side, but because I know that cohesiveness (solidarity) offers protection against such evils. <br /><br />Perhaps we could all offer private prayers for the often unknown victims of communism, during this lenten season.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-33914674473227622872010-02-23T00:55:02.461-05:002010-02-23T00:55:02.461-05:00Mark VA
Perhaps you can document the destruction ...Mark VA<br /><br />Perhaps you can document the destruction of these non-papal churches, beginning with the Russian Orthodox Church. Is it still there?Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-84862195406334859792010-02-22T21:41:17.039-05:002010-02-22T21:41:17.039-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Father Hart, I find y...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart, I find your arguments unresolved. <br /><br />First you claim that the papacy was "... never a threat to any cynical military dictatorship", then you admit that "We already know that the KGB was behind the assassination attempt." on Pope John Paul II; <br /><br />My point that this is also about ecclesiastical organization, solidarity, and the collective ability to conquer this evil, and not only about the ability of some individual Christians to survive the attacks of atheistic regimes, was not addressed. <br /><br />Perhaps we'll have the opportunity to resolve some of these issues at some future time, as your blog allows.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-21240048283176357722010-02-22T19:35:42.676-05:002010-02-22T19:35:42.676-05:00Mark VA
We already know that the KGB was behind t...Mark VA<br /><br />We already know that the KGB was behind the assassination attempt. That's old news. Solidarity in Poland was the big threat, and he was one of the leaders. But, that was because Poland was traditionally a Roman Catholic country. No such influence existed in Russia.<br /><br />In China, why did the government imprison and kill the Protestant missionary Nee To-Sheng (Watchman Nee)? He was not a papal emissary. Could it be that what they fear is Christianity, not simply Roman Catholicism? The Protestants have their martyrs too, in case you hadn't heard. In Russia, the Orthodox had their martyrs under Communism. In Romania, Richard Wurmbrandt was a Lutheran.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-87891413898925876542010-02-22T18:34:44.961-05:002010-02-22T18:34:44.961-05:00Joe Oliveri opines:
"But I would argue that ...Joe Oliveri opines:<br /><br />"But I would argue that administration of Church goods by an Ordinary is more proper than administration by parish (civil) corporation."<br /><br />I am quite sure you would indeed argue that, along with Katherine Jefforts-Schori, David Booth Beers, the writers of the Dennis Canon, and dozens of other heresiarchs who shamelessly devour buildings and property given by faithful Christians to advance the traditional Faith. Your line of argument takes church buildings and turns them into restaurants and antique stores.<br /><br />You seem to feel that this view of Church real estate has some kind of patristic basis. You have now unwittingly conceded our argument--implicitly acknowledging that "personal parishes" will lose control of their earthly property. Watch it, Joe, you are tipping your hand. <br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-5078711796512940682010-02-22T17:00:16.626-05:002010-02-22T17:00:16.626-05:00Joe O. wrote:
"Hooker himself addressed the v...Joe O. wrote:<br />"Hooker himself addressed the very problem of prelates -- sometimes unworthy of their office -- owning and administering goods donated to, or set aside for the Church. His first point was that the Church's wealth belongs properly to God. "Possessions, lands and livings spiritual, the wealth of the clergy, the goods of the Church, are in such sort the Lord's own, that man can challenge no propriety in them"<br /><br />Joe, how right you (and Hooker) are, but Hooker was referring to an existing ecclesiastical polity and people already subject to it. Hooker would have an entirely different take about taking property under one polity and removing it to one that is manifestly corrupt.<br /><br />The lights of how you use Hooker, we should have stayed in the Episcopal Church.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-79205269196603459002010-02-22T15:15:01.679-05:002010-02-22T15:15:01.679-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Father Hart:
It woul...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart:<br /><br />It would be interesting to know what you think were the motives behind the attempt on Pope John Paul II life?<br /><br />Or why the dictatorship in China maintains a "patriotic catholic church", while the real Catholic Church is persecuted?Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-21815747004117888882010-02-22T14:33:07.599-05:002010-02-22T14:33:07.599-05:00Joe:
Fr. Wells has pointed out that the Ordinary ...Joe:<br /><br />Fr. Wells has pointed out that the Ordinary of the Ordinariate, having whatever powers he will, provides no safer guarantee than a diocesan bishop. It is still out of the hands of those who use and pay for the property.<br /><br />Fr. Nalls is about to address this with a clear answer to all the relevant questions. Compared to his expertise, our opinions in this matter of Canon Law are not worth much.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-25122435236217739662010-02-22T14:21:02.924-05:002010-02-22T14:21:02.924-05:00Fr. Wells wrote:
I do not recall anyone suggesti...Fr. Wells wrote: <br /><br /><i>I do not recall anyone suggesting any such thing</i> [i.e., "that the property of the parishes, including that which is presently held by dioceses for the pastoral provision parishes, must be vested in the geographic Ordinary"].<br /><br />But in fact, this claim would seem to be implicit in Fr. Hart's statement, above: "[RC canon law] require[s] all real property to revert to the control of the Diocese." It is also implicit in your description of the supposed dilemma faced by the U.S. Ordinariate(s): "[H]ow do we persuade those crusty Vestrymen in tiny parishes to sign over their real estate to the Roman Catholic Church? And how do we persuade the parishes which say 'No way' to continue sending their tithes to Orlando?" <br /><br />Fr. John remarks that legal title of property formerly belonging to TAC parishes will be transferred to the Ordinariate[s]. I am inclined to think he is correct (although we may both be wrong). "This is," he cautions, "a sea change from direct ownership of the parish property by the parish corporation."<br /><br />It is indeed. But I would argue that administration of Church goods by an Ordinary is more proper than administration by parish (civil) corporation. Was the latter arrangement known in the Undivided Church? Was it endorsed by the lights of the English Reformation?<br /><br />Hooker himself addressed the very problem of prelates -- sometimes unworthy of their office -- owning and administering goods donated to, or set aside for the Church. His first point was that the Church's wealth belongs properly to God. "Possessions, lands and livings spiritual, the wealth of the clergy, the goods of the Church, are in such sort the Lord's own, that man can challenge no propriety in them" (Book VII, Ch. xxii, 1). Further on, he observes: "Persons ecclesiastical are God's stewards, not only for that he hath set them over his family, as the ministers of ghostly food, but even for this very cause also, that they are to receive and dispose his temporal revenues, the gifts and oblations which men bring him" (Book VII, Ch. xxiii, 1).<br /><br />No one denies that a Roman Catholic Bishop (or Ordinary) may suppress a parish and sell off the property. This is only supposed to happen with "just cause" -- e.g., a large church used by a small and dwindling community. It is true, and tragic, that in some cases over the past few years -- particularly in Boston -- the "just cause" rule appeared to have gone by the wayside. However, in many other cases, also in recent years, bishops have taken closed parishes and given ownership and administration over to religious institutes. This was the case, for example, with <a href="http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/12/fssp-given-charge-of-quebec-church-of.html" rel="nofollow">Saint-Zephirin de Stadacona</a> in Quebec, now a parish of the Fraternity of St. Peter; and <a href="http://www.institute-christ-king.org/stlouis/stlouis-about/" rel="nofollow">St. Francis de Sales</a>, the sometime "Cathedral of South St. Louis,” which in 2005 became an Oratory of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. It is not unreasonable, then, to hope that the Ordinariates may be the recipients of similar donations one day.<br /><br />At all events, a Roman Catholic bishop cannot "grab" property from an Ordinariate. As I've already remarked, each Ordinariate is a <i>juridic person</i> (cf. AC I, §3) under canon law, answerable directly to the Holy See; it is "juridically comparable to a diocese" (ibid.). As such, its property is administered by its proper Ordinary -- <i>not</i> by the local RC Bishop, nor by the episcopal conference. (Cf. Can. 1276 §1.) <br /><br />JoeJoe Oliverihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158355659523906494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-6484214677510915352010-02-22T13:59:57.720-05:002010-02-22T13:59:57.720-05:00Mark VA
Threat in what way? Pope John-Paul II was...Mark VA<br /><br />Threat in what way? Pope John-Paul II was effective in Poland by backing Solidarity. Nonetheless, he had no influence inside of Russia, or China, and really not even inside of Cuba. The North Koreans also have never trembled in their boots because of the papacy.<br /><br />You are making an extraordinary claim with no reality to it outside of the historical events in Poland.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-19465711938360828952010-02-22T08:44:03.568-05:002010-02-22T08:44:03.568-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Father Hart wrote tha...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart wrote that the papacy "... was never a threat to any cynical military dictatorship."<br /><br />Father Hart, I'm still trying to understand your statement, thinking that somehow I've misread it. The papacy was never a threat to the communists?? <br /><br />I wonder if any of your fellow Continuing Anglicans that blog here are willing to agree with you on this.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-324871472923982832010-02-21T22:43:09.737-05:002010-02-21T22:43:09.737-05:00Yeah, Henry VIII was a wicked man, but he treated ...Yeah, Henry VIII was a wicked man, but he treated the Pope with much more reverence and respect than the Holy Roman Emperor Karl V did. <br /><br />While Henry was trying to obtain a canonically legal annulment from the Pope, Katherine of Aragon's nephew, Karl V was holding the Pope as a prisoner of war!<br /><br />How about a denunciation of that good Catholic (not Roman yet, got to wait until Trent to get that name) Karl V?<br /><br />Henry petitions for a legal annulment, Karl arrests the Pope and menaces him into inactivity on Henry's behalf. It should be clear where the greater evil is.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-51446194952078294262010-02-21T22:29:26.884-05:002010-02-21T22:29:26.884-05:00Anonymous wrote:
"The idea that the property...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br />"The idea that the property of the parishes, including that which is presently held by dioceses for the pastoral provision parishes, must be vested in the goegraphic Ordinary is nonsense and to insist so is ignorant of any of the facts."<br /><br />Unknown friend, <br />The jury is remains out on this, but even if what you write is true, it still means that the parish property is being transferred to the Ordinariate. Are you even in the Continuum? This is a sea change from direct ownership of the parish property by the parish corporation.<br /><br />Remember, only one Ordinariate for the entire U.S., we don't have any idea who that ordinary will be. Go ahead, transfer the ownership of your property to this yet to be named ordinary. Ten, twenty, or even fewer years from now when the American RC left has the whip hand, it will be too late to get away clean.<br /><br />I am not betting my church building on the American RC Church being able to wrest control away from the left wingers who currently control the USCCB.<br /><br />None of you wannabe, or current Roman Catholics have said a word about what Roman Catholic Bishop Boland did a few weeks back when he stood, and marched, in solidarity with Katherine Jefferts-Schori and the new gay marriage blessing Episcopal Bishop of Gerogia Benhase. And what is your reaction to the gay dominated RC seminaries? <br /><br />The American RC Church is hungering and thirsting to go down the same road as the Episcopal Church. You know its true, that's why none of you dare to try and defend Bishop Boland's actions.<br /><br />Don't be foolish.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-24135624323418607432010-02-21T22:14:47.096-05:002010-02-21T22:14:47.096-05:00Truly anonymous Anonymous opineth:
"The idea...Truly anonymous Anonymous opineth:<br /><br />"The idea that the property of the parishes, including that which is presently held by dioceses for the pastoral provision parishes, must be vested in the goegraphic Ordinary is nonsense and to insist so is ignorant of any of the facts."<br /><br />I do not recall anyone suggesting any such thing. What several people, myself included, have apointed out is that there appears to be little or no prospect of a "personal parish" in an Ordinariate or whatever continuing to hold title to its property, as guaranteed by the Affirmation of St Louis and all Continuing Church canons that I know of. The official Roman documents are silent on the matter, but we can safely point out that parishes as independent legal corporations, owning property out of reach from higher authorities, are not within Rome's conceptual framework. If you want your real estate to become subject to either diocese of Ordinariate, go for it!<br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-60723863601816963142010-02-21T20:17:40.943-05:002010-02-21T20:17:40.943-05:00This thread was originally concerned with our frie...This thread was originally concerned with our friend (I sincerely mean that) Dr Bill Tighe. He has now contributed an essay to the blog which I like to call "Voice of Disney-world." Since my comments there are automatically rejected, I will comment here.<br /><br />Dr Tighe gives us much information concerning the separation of England and England's Church from the Bishop of Rome.<br />Here is his conclusion:<br /><br />"To effect the kind of “reformation” that a few desired for religious reasons and that many more desired for political reasons, the Church had to be bludgeoned into submission by forcible methods wielded by secular authorities, extending so far as making opponents (even those who spoke against Henry VIII’s “Supreme Headship”) guilty of treason."<br /><br />We are told that Henry VIII and other founders of what we call Anglicanism were villains of the darkest hue, there was absolutely nothing good or praiseworthy in the whole affair, that the Church of England was possessed by a thing more wicked than all the devils of hell, a thing known as <br /><br />P R O T E S T A N T I S M.<br /><br />I am sure Dr Tighe has his facts marshalled and far be it from me to challenge a single one of them. He maintains a discreet silence, on the other hand, about the goings on in Rome and Spain during the same period. Presumably the Holy Catholic Church in those places continued in pristine purity. If it was otherwise, Dr Tighe has failed to inform us of any "flecks of sandstone in the marble of the Parthenon" in places where the Pope was duly honored.<br /><br />But I am left wondering. If Anglicanism has such despicable origins from such reprehensible men as Henry VIII and Thomas Cranmer, it must be polluted to an irreedemable degree. We have the Highest Possible Authority for saying that a rotten tree cannot bring forth good fruit.<br /><br />So what is this precious Anglican patrimony which the generous Pope Bendict XVI is so eager to welcome into the One True Church? Why not require that all Anglican converts be exorcised?<br />If Dr Tighe is even partly correct, then there is no "Patrimony" worth preserving, but rather a horrible spiritual virus (the P word again) to be rooted out, suppressed, utterly destroyed.<br /><br />If I accepted Dr Tighe's analysis of Anglicanism for one instant, I would not be waiting around for some "Ordinariate" to surface at some unspecified time. I would run breathlessly to the Roman Rectory door up the street, beat on the door loudly until Fr O'Flaherty received me on the spot into the One True Church, burn every Anglican book in my library, and never admit to a living soul that I had ever been guilty of the detestable heresy deriving from Henry VIII and Thomas Cranmer. Patrimony, my foot!<br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-9627721483649451992010-02-21T19:02:13.245-05:002010-02-21T19:02:13.245-05:00Just for what it is worth, the Pastoral Provision ...Just for what it is worth, the Pastoral Provision parishes and their respective Ordinaries, are at this time working on the plan to move property from local dioceses to the Ordinariates as soon as they are errected. There is no speculation about this necessary, it is underway. My own Bishop - a notable canonist - is involved as are the two Archbishops of Texas.<br /><br />The idea that the property of the parishes, including that which is presently held by dioceses for the pastoral provision parishes, must be vested in the goegraphic Ordinary is nonsense and to insist so is ignorant of any of the facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-55932446888602688282010-02-21T18:46:24.091-05:002010-02-21T18:46:24.091-05:00Mark VA:
The papacy had no influence in Russia, a...Mark VA:<br /><br />The papacy had no influence in Russia, and was never a threat to any cynical military dictatorship. The pope does not have any nuclear missiles nor solders nor battle ships.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-69117018213849693692010-02-21T06:41:39.497-05:002010-02-21T06:41:39.497-05:00From the Roman perspective:
Father Hart wrote:
&...From the Roman perspective:<br /><br />Father Hart wrote:<br /><br />"I see no evidence that the papacy gave protection to people under Communism."<br /><br />The question then becomes, what is known to you regarding the realities of daily life Christians experienced under communism? How well do you understand the various methods their oppressors used against them? Do you know the kind of defenses, spiritual, emotional, or intellectual, believers in God had to rely on not only to survive these assaults, but to help exhaust and defeat this evil? <br /><br />Such understanding is a prerequisite to any discussion that is not circular, but actually leads somewhere.<br /><br />RC Cola:<br /><br />Thank you.Mark VAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-83573659676756723582010-02-21T05:20:11.088-05:002010-02-21T05:20:11.088-05:00Clericalism needs to be cleansed out of the RC sys...<i>Clericalism needs to be cleansed out of the RC system.</i><br /><br />Ain't that the truth!<br /> But this is the door to an entirely different topic worth discussing on the Continuum.RC Colanoreply@blogger.com