tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post5098608270806748874..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Archbishop Hepworth and Anglican OrdersFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-25660812508211962182009-03-24T12:37:00.000-04:002009-03-24T12:37:00.000-04:00I read a lot about Hepworth wanting the ACA/TAC to...I read a lot about Hepworth wanting the ACA/TAC to hook up with Rome. My own parish in Oregon left the ACA/TAC and joined the APCK over this issue. We had no interest in hooking up with Rome, and we made the right choice....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-31575332313921279082008-08-24T21:46:00.000-04:002008-08-24T21:46:00.000-04:00The Western Rite Orthodox service (Saint Tikhon's)...The Western Rite Orthodox service (Saint Tikhon's) is far more Anglican, essentially the 1928. Strange (or ironic) that the Romans had to cut out our eucharistic canon while the Orthodox left it 99% intact.Rev. Dr. Hasserthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14350737386756722887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-46344783225778587232008-08-24T15:20:00.000-04:002008-08-24T15:20:00.000-04:00There is nothing Anglican about "Anglican Use."There is nothing Anglican about "Anglican Use."Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-50721571955558098462008-08-24T14:52:00.000-04:002008-08-24T14:52:00.000-04:00A word of caution. Steve Cavanaugh wrote that "Th...A word of caution. Steve Cavanaugh wrote that "Those who have studied the genesis of the Pastoral Provision in the U.S. will know that there was not simply a fiat from Rome.... Anglican priests were involved in the discussions, as they were in the creation of the Book of Divine Worship."<BR/><BR/>Those who have studied the results of that collaboration will know that the resulting pastiche was based on the highly-suspect and only presumptively Anglican 1979 "Prayer Book". Then, even in that case, the remanants of any recognizably Anglican Canon of Consecration were scissored out and the current abominable ICEL Roman Canons were pasted in in its place.<BR/><BR/>I have asked some of those with personal knowledge of that process why the original proponents of the Pastoral Provisions settled for such a questionable product; the answer I received was that it was much easier to get that past the Roman censors than would have been a real Anglican service.<BR/><BR/>To me, that just reaffirms the fear that those who join Romen join only on Rome's terms.<BR/><BR/>John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-36141545445082220892008-08-23T15:21:00.000-04:002008-08-23T15:21:00.000-04:00Canon Tallis reminded us of that great early-17th ...Canon Tallis reminded us of that great early-17th Century Anglican, "Marc Antonio de Dominis, sometime Archbishop of Spalato and Dean of Windsor, participated in Anglican consecrations in the Caroline age before he made the mistake of returning to Rome and their so kind ministrations".<BR/><BR/>The official Roman response to any such reminder would probably be that Archbisop de Dominis's participation in 17th-Century English consecrations -- which on the example of the 20th-Century "Dutch Touch" we may call "the Dalmatian Dubbing" -- "cured" the "defects" in Anglican Orders to no greater an extent that Tallyrand's participation in late 18th-Century French consecrations imported vices into French Order.<BR/><BR/>That is because the Anglican Ordinal used at the time de Dominis soujourned in England was pre-1662, i.e., still lacked the phrase "for the office and work of a X. in the Church of God". <BR/><BR/>By the twisted logic of "Apostolicae Curae", even though this phrase is non-essential to the validity of the rite, its omission prior to 1662 rendered the Anglican rite incapable of transmitting valid Orders. Or, more precisely, even though the explanatory phrase was was added to traduce some errors of the Puritans regarding the differing grades of the Sacrament of Order, its addition in 1662 constituted an admission that the rite was, prior to 1662, defective.<BR/><BR/>So even though a valid Roman Catholic Archbishop participated in 17th-Century English consecrations, those consecrations themselves were ineffective because the rite used to confect them omitted an inessential element.<BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Something is officially declared to be inessential but its omission makes that from which it was omitted invalid. Does anyone see any cognitive dissonance here?<BR/><BR/>Perish the disloyal thought. Let us reflect instead on how many demons can dance on the head of Cardinal Rafael Merry del Val. <BR/><BR/>John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-83687946473084702732008-08-23T15:07:00.000-04:002008-08-23T15:07:00.000-04:00Fr. Wells, perhaps on reflection you would withdra...Fr. Wells, perhaps on reflection you would withdraw your rhetorical question to Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>"Or would you suggest that Elijah should have shown a more loving spirit to the priests of Baal?"<BR/><BR/>I know that in your cooler moments you would not wish to be so rigid and unaffirming toward those whose Gog-given natures compel them to choose the child-burning lifestyle.<BR/><BR/>The ancient Hebrews, blinkered as they were by their patriarchal, oppressive, paedicidophobic society and narrow cosmology, simply were not as well equipped as we are to understand that Baal worship, like that of Magog or Marduk or Astarte, is just one among many equally valid paths to self-actualization.<BR/><BR/>In the cause of furthering the vital search for self esteem, the next generation is a small sacrifice to make.<BR/><BR/>John A. Hollister+John A. Hollisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01325615323834517909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-47500211461710030892008-08-22T12:01:00.000-04:002008-08-22T12:01:00.000-04:00I'd like to contribute a few clarifications if I c...I'd like to contribute a few clarifications if I could.<BR/><BR/>First, ++Hepworth seems to say in the VOL interview that only 4 parishes have left <I>in the last year</I>, i.e., since the meeting in Portsmouth. Fr. Wells is accusing ++H of being wrong (intentionally or not). Have more than 4 parishes left in the last year?<BR/><BR/>Second, 1928 Supporter says, "If any of the Continuum wishes to be united to Rome, it will be on Rome's terms." I think this is not correct. It seems to me that there are negotiations under way. Those who have studied the genesis of the Pastoral Provision in the U.S. will know that there was not simply a fiat from Rome...Anglican priests were involved in the discussions, as they were in the creation of the <I>Book of Divine Worship</I>. Both Rome and the Continuing Churches and Anglo-Catholic bodies in conversation with her will contribute to the "terms." As long ago as the early 20th century, when the Society of the Atonement came into communion with Rome there was a willingness to negotiate. Clearly, as in any discussion, some items originate with one party or the other, but 1928's phrase makes it seem as though there's a lecturer and an audience. I believe things are far more complex than that.Steve Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021781365974293126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-33833996392352665112008-08-21T09:41:00.000-04:002008-08-21T09:41:00.000-04:00I have to address this one head on:"Let us never f...I have to address this one head on:<BR/><BR/>"Let us never forget that Christ taught to love one another."<BR/><BR/>I do not think we are in any danger of forgetting this. But "1928 Supporter" and many others like him are in real danger of forgetting that "love" in the NT sense of the word (Agape, not "luv") requires clarity of thought, honesty of expression, and courage in facing real issues.<BR/><BR/>It is not exactly "loving" to suggest that anyone willing to face up to real problems and issues is an unloving person. And your picture of Jesus (I tell you this in much love) is a far cry from that of the four Gospels, in which He went around calling people "whited sepulchres" or telling them "ye are of your father the devil."<BR/><BR/>I hope you do not feel that Paul failed in "love" when he rebuked Peter to his face. Or would you suggest that Elijah should have shown a more loving spirit to the priests of Baal?<BR/><BR/>It is only sentimentality to suggest that non-Christians are off-put by the controversies Christians have among themselves.<BR/>Every religion under the sun has similar controversies, usually much more bitterly. This line of argument will only require you to explain why Christianity, over the past 2,000 years, has been so successful in reaching almost the entire globe with the Gospel. How did these "unloving" mean-spirited bunch of grinches manage to make so much headway in sharing their faith?<BR/>LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-32816719532400001662008-08-20T23:50:00.000-04:002008-08-20T23:50:00.000-04:001928:You seem always to fall in among a bad lot. M...1928:<BR/><BR/>You seem always to fall in among a bad lot. Most of the Continuers I know are rather gracious.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-10667284378216821162008-08-20T23:47:00.000-04:002008-08-20T23:47:00.000-04:00It seems obvious to me that Fr. Hart noticed how t...It seems obvious to me that Fr. Hart noticed how the VOL interview would colour Archbp. Hepworth's efforts, and wanted to balance it out. From VOL alone we would figure that Archbp. Hepworth might really be guilty of what one chap accused him of (and others in the TAC). I believe a commentor took it that they accept Rome's 'absolutley null and utterly void' line, and called it 'cognitive dissonance.' <BR/><BR/>By quoting Archbp. Hepworth's affirmation of Anglican orders, Fr. Hart did the man and his followers a favour- one which I don't think he deserved after trashing Fr.Hart's interview and having it abolished. It was rather big of Fr. Hart.<BR/><BR/>Jay B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-539613435986247592008-08-20T22:33:00.000-04:002008-08-20T22:33:00.000-04:00When people who call themselves "Christians" fight...When people who call themselves "Christians" fight, back stab one another, commit sins of pride, commit sins of seeking power, commit sins of schism, etc.,<BR/>I suspect that it probably causes Christ Our Saviour pain, not unlike that He endured on the Cross. <BR/><BR/>It isn't just the Continuum sniping at one another. We also have clergy in the Continuum who similarly snipe at Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc., in their sermons and in their daily lives. Let us never forget that Christ taught to love one another.<BR/><BR/>If we want to be faithful to Christ Our Saviour then we need to teach the faith, as the Continuum believes it, without attacking others to do so. Nothing turns off people from churches any more than churches attacking one another from their pulpits. It makes the non-Christians in the world look at Christianity and decide that Christians are hypocrites, and the the whole of Christianity isn't true.<BR/><BR/>Plus, sniping at other denominations is just plain tacky and makes anyone who engages in such behaviour appear rude and ill-mannered.<BR/><BR/>Lord, have mercy upon us.<BR/>Christ, have mercy upon us.<BR/>Lord, have mercy upon us.<BR/><BR/>1928 BCP SupporterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-91473788624971909712008-08-20T22:28:00.000-04:002008-08-20T22:28:00.000-04:00In the list of seven states where ACA parishes hav...In the list of seven states where ACA parishes have left, I forgot one, that is, SC. I should have said eight, not seven.<BR/><BR/>"Parsoun" is not altogether incorrect, and he and I probably agree in our assessments more than we would disagree. I do not recall any "losing candidate" in the "Southeast" taking one third of the diocese away. Did you mean SouthWEST?<BR/><BR/>The numerous parishes which have fled from ACA-DEUS are a testament to alarm at Abp Hepworth's project. And also Bp Campese has contributed greatly to growth in APA, ACC, and APCK.<BR/><BR/>As this discussion is refined, it resolves itself into two rather different issues: (1) the rightfulness of the aspirations in many hearts for reunion with the Holy See, and (2) the credibility and competence of Abp Hepworth and the TAC bishops to lead such a reunion.<BR/><BR/>One thinks of the Obama campaign, which, for all its merits or demerits, shows signs of self-destruction. <BR/>LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-56716398671551147592008-08-20T22:02:00.000-04:002008-08-20T22:02:00.000-04:00Retiring UK Bishop Reveals No Consensus among Brot...Retiring UK Bishop Reveals No Consensus among Brother Bishops over Same-sex Adoption<BR/>Loss of confidence and authoritative teaching in all areas has led to general collapse of the Church<BR/><BR/>Read it all:<BR/>http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/aug/08081906.html<BR/><BR/>NOW WHO WANTS TO BE PARTY TO THIS?Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-44317566284584774042008-08-20T21:14:00.000-04:002008-08-20T21:14:00.000-04:00There are many fine clergy in the ACA, and Albion ...There are many fine clergy in the ACA, and Albion has accepted my suggestion to invite one of them to join us as a blogger. We have not heard back from him yet.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-23003360068012099242008-08-20T19:56:00.000-04:002008-08-20T19:56:00.000-04:00Why is it that we are slamming the ACA here? He ...Why is it that we are slamming the ACA here? <BR/> He who is without sin cast the first stone.<BR/> I can say that there are some very godly men in the ACA. Bishop Moyer is such a man and as my Bishop I submit to him gladly. <BR/> I wonder if we are too quick to find fault and accentuate the negatives in others rather than the positives. Is the ACA really just a deformed group of power players who are sloppy publicity interviewees? <BR/> I don't know....maybe I am just getting sick of the infighting. I wonder...when the body of Christ fights each other....who bleeds?<BR/><BR/>TimotheusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-72646122085354905352008-08-20T16:00:00.000-04:002008-08-20T16:00:00.000-04:00Fr Wells said: the loss of parishes in FL, Alaska,...Fr Wells said: <BR/><I>the loss of parishes in FL, Alaska, Arizona, TX, NC, VA, and PA is well known. These seven congregations are among the largest of that jurisdiction.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, not true. <BR/><BR/>Parishes in FL, NC, and VA left because Bp Campese drove them out.<BR/><BR/>The parish in PA simply died when their rector was called to be bishop out West. <BR/><BR/>The parish in AZ left because they're protestant. <BR/><BR/>Finally, the parish in TX left because their new rector converted them to charismatics, and when he lost an episcopal election, they went off to a charismatic neo-anglican organisation.The Parsounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10476697417061888472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-80946281379361612592008-08-20T14:47:00.000-04:002008-08-20T14:47:00.000-04:00Fr.John:I also like the movie Animal Crackers, (wh...Fr.John:<BR/><BR/>I also like the movie <I>Animal Crackers</I>, (which is where that song is from), and have kept your long quotation for my own amusement. But, alas, we must stick to serious business.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-72814787963294780042008-08-20T14:44:00.000-04:002008-08-20T14:44:00.000-04:00I think it is fair to say that Archbishop Hepworth...I think it is fair to say that Archbishop Hepworth has not been presenting the best Public Relations or sales skills when dealing with his own people; and that may be because he has been concentrating instead on his communications with Rome. The speculation and worry that people are expressing sometimes have their origin in something he himself said or wrote.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-85812899789193774212008-08-20T10:18:00.000-04:002008-08-20T10:18:00.000-04:00Thank you, poetreader. That needed to be said.Bac...Thank you, poetreader. That needed to be said.<BR/><BR/>Back to the topic itself. Christians should always speak well of each other and should be slow to doubt one another's word. One Christian does not call another Christian untruthful without real pain.<BR/><BR/>But there is a pattern in statements originating with Abp Hepworth.<BR/>He, or his spokesmen, have claimed enormous membership figures for TAC, ranging from 400,000 to 700,000.<BR/>He has alleged lawsuits being waged against him by the Anglican Catholic Church, which no one in the ACC seems to know anthing about. (If this were indeed a fact, it would be a good reason to have conversations, not to avoid them, with Abp Haverland.)<BR/>He has claimed that the Russian Orthodox Church has admitted married priests into the Episcopate. (Dr Tighe has expressed his wonderment at this one.)<BR/>He minimizes the attrition which <BR/>ACA is experiencing (one 4 parishes!), when the loss of parishes in FL, Alaska, Arizona, TX, NC, VA, and PA is well known. These seven congregations are among the largest of that jurisdiction.<BR/>He has related a rather shocking story to explain why he left the priesthood of the RC Church.<BR/>Yes, sad to say, there is a pattern here.<BR/>LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-35392124999633857152008-08-20T10:00:00.000-04:002008-08-20T10:00:00.000-04:00Fr Hart said:The statement that only four congrega...Fr Hart said:<BR/><I>The statement that only four congregations have left the TAC worldwide is simply not true at all. More than that have left here in America alone.</I><BR/><BR/>This is an untruth, but one hopes, an unintentional one. There have been many parishes to leave the ACA in the Southeast, most because of an episcopal election in which the loser left and took a third of the diocese with him. The rest left, nearly ten parishes over the years, because of the ordinary of the Diocese of the Eastern United States. This can be confirmed by checking with each rector involved.The Parsounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10476697417061888472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-3885071529797627342008-08-20T09:27:00.000-04:002008-08-20T09:27:00.000-04:00Ed,As I recall, your pretty good at sneering yours...Ed,<BR/><BR/>As I recall, your pretty good at sneering yourself when you see something that deserves it.<BR/><BR/>There is something seriously unbalanced with this whole business. Do you think me unreasonable when I point out that Archbishop Hepworth's recent behavior and public utterances seem, to me anyway, to be designed to provoke controversy, and invite speculation. Perhaps that is not his intention, I do not question his motives or impute his integrity. I have no knowledge to be able to judge those things.<BR/><BR/>However I do believe that the announcement of this contact with Rome has been badly handled and demonstrates a serious lack of tact,diplomacy, and planning on the part of Archbishop Hepworth.<BR/><BR/>The fact that Fr. Hart was badly used also does not speak well for ++Hepworth.<BR/><BR/>I wish we could just ignore the ACA's actions in this matter, but since the continuum's existence presents a confused and puzzling picture to the public, anything they do reflects on the ACC. If the ACA makes a mistake in this matter we will all be negatively impacted, especially in the public eye.<BR/><BR/>This is starting to look like a public relations nightmare.<BR/><BR/>Fr. Z,<BR/><BR/>I was thinking "A Night at the Opera" with Groucho singing "I Must Be Going."Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-29418044736707112862008-08-20T08:21:00.000-04:002008-08-20T08:21:00.000-04:00And what, pray tell, is the purpose of those last ...And what, pray tell, is the purpose of those last two comments? These are substantive discussions of genuine issues. If we are to exist as a Continuing Church movement, these issues need to be faced, discussed, and ultimately solved. They simply cannot be left to take care of themselves, so we are discussing them here. If a solution can be found, we continue as a viable movement. If not, well, then, we will find that the venture is not possible. We have to try, and we on this blog believe it is a worthy effort and expect success.<BR/><BR/>Now, if you have something to contribute, you are very welcome indeed, <B>even if we don't like what you say</B>, but if your desire is to sneer or to wish failure upon us, we'd prefer that you not pick our 'living room' to do it in. Thank you.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry if I seem a bit prickly, but I don't think I'm out of place taking umbrage at such comments.<BR/><BR/>edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-71131362264480117932008-08-19T23:58:00.000-04:002008-08-19T23:58:00.000-04:00Horsefeathers perhaps?-fr.zHorsefeathers perhaps?<BR/><BR/>-fr.zAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-5787397492920283752008-08-19T22:38:00.000-04:002008-08-19T22:38:00.000-04:00Here we go again!This is starting to seem like a M...Here we go again!<BR/><BR/>This is starting to seem like a Marx brothers movie.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-48871617579550679402008-08-19T21:26:00.000-04:002008-08-19T21:26:00.000-04:00Fr. Hart:I'm not attacking the Continuum. I am a m...Fr. Hart:<BR/><BR/>I'm not attacking the Continuum. I am a member of the Continuum by choice. <BR/><BR/>You'll note that I said: "Looking at it from Rome's point of view....." Those of us in the Continuum know some of the reasons (good and bad) for what has happened. Rome has no way to know that insider knowledge. Looking at it from Rome's point of view, it looks worse than it actually is, as we well know.<BR/><BR/>I would agree wholeheartedly with the owners of this Blog that legitimate members of the Continuum are limited and do not include all of the various Vagantes. <BR/><BR/>However, we all have to be honest that originally there was only one Continuing Church that was formed at the Chambers consecrations.<BR/><BR/>The fact that there are more than that one original jursidiction is due to the sins of pride, sins of seeking power, etc. <BR/><BR/>If all the effort that has been put into fighting, schism,<BR/>and divisive efforts by some (not all) bishops of the Continuum had been dedicated to evangelism and bringing souls to Christ, the Continuum wouldn't be so small. Indeed the Continuum might have grown and prospered by bringing souls to Christ if all that energy had been used for good, instead of divisive actions.<BR/><BR/>1928 BCP SupporterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com