tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post4208990387908047333..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: BetrayedFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-89948680243528001342010-07-15T23:20:57.291-04:002010-07-15T23:20:57.291-04:00In order for the Articles to relay their true and ...<i>In order for the Articles to relay their true and intended meaning, they must remain within the BCP, where liturgy helps explain them.</i><br /><br />Heavy use of footnotes citing Scripture, the Councils, Doctors and Fathers from whence they were derived, a pocket guide to 'Navigating the Articles to Their Catholic Sources' and Fr. Hart's cell phone number might help to explain them also.<br /><br />Canon Tallis, By all means, Drink!<br /><br />Nathan<br />parinesNathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11296779647932655590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-50576087739830071642010-07-15T21:43:17.140-04:002010-07-15T21:43:17.140-04:00Michael:
When you get to be my age, you will not ...Michael:<br /><br />When you get to be my age, you will not mind looking stupid. I am glad to hear your report, and I hope this means that Canon Sinclair will be reinstated, and receive the full apology that, if your report is true, they must be most eager to give him.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66424508835163669122010-07-15T21:40:56.024-04:002010-07-15T21:40:56.024-04:00What you published, Father, would seem laughable t...What you published, Father, would seem laughable to anyone present at the ACCC synod in Vancouver this week - even the few who were opposed to the Apostolic Constitution.<br /><br />Our bishops stressed the theological inheritence of the Anglican Church; our Primate urged us not to be hung up on minor details in the liurgy, and to focus on evangelism; some of our more Evangelical brethren talked about prayer and spiritual warfare. The sermons were longer than seven minutes, and they were darn well not wimpy.<br /><br />I know you disagree with us, and that's honourable. I know there are lots of things you dislike about what we're doing. We have many faults - you don't need to make up ridiculous stuff - it just makes you look stupid.Michaelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04603402422216696381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66902989529747190702010-07-14T16:12:40.163-04:002010-07-14T16:12:40.163-04:00Downunder in Australia where the ACC in tiny in co...Downunder in Australia where the ACC in tiny in comparison with the American Church, we are celebrating the reception on Trinity VI of Fr. Derek Pryde and the TAC parish of St. James Mermaid Beach(Gold Coast into the ACC. This is the first of Archbishop Hepworth's parishes to leave the TAC, for them ending the schism which was so damaging to the Australian Church.<br /><br />For anyone in Queensland here are the parish details:<br />St. James Anglican Catholic Church<br />32 Dolphin Avenue, Mermaid Beach, QLD 4218<br />Rector: The Rev’d Derek Pryde, Th.L (Aust.); Dip. Div. (UK); Ch.L. (USA)<br />Tel. 07 5578 6881<br />Associate Priest: The Rev’d Reg Mills, Th.L (Hons)<br />Tel. 07 5534 2319<br />Sundays: 9.00 a.m. The Parish Communion and Healing Service<br />Thursdays: 10.00 a.m. Mass & Study/Discussion at the home of Fr. Reg 1/54 Sarawak Avenue, Palm Beach, QLD<br />Saints’ & Holy Days: Mass celebrated in the homes of parishioners<br />T.V. Programme: “Meditation Medication” each Sunday on Brisbane Channel 31 at 11.00 a.m.<br /> <br />See also the Diocesan website: www.accdanz.org.<br /><br />Rev'd. David Gould<br />Annunciation of Our Lady Anglican Catholic Church Mission - Hobart, TasmaniaDeacon Down Underhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14903366446394957630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-55905663333734639722010-07-14T14:02:27.115-04:002010-07-14T14:02:27.115-04:00Excellent post.
DH+
Let me also say that someon...Excellent post. <br /><br />DH+<br /><br />Let me also say that someone else seems to have taken my blogger name--the other An Anglican Cleric isn't me.Rev. Dr. Hasserthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14350737386756722887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-21717271681734122542010-07-14T13:24:23.210-04:002010-07-14T13:24:23.210-04:00Father Hart, I made a small bet with myself as to ...Father Hart, I made a small bet with myself as to how you would answer Nathan's question and you came through for me like a champion. I only wish I could share the bottle of champagne with which I am going to reward myself for so precisely anticipating your answer. I hope to sometime in the near future share such a bottle with you and your lovely bride.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-90303547709907073062010-07-14T11:59:18.859-04:002010-07-14T11:59:18.859-04:00One writer states:
The Articles were not written p...One writer states:<br /><i>The Articles were not written primarily as a reaction against Rome, but rather as a definitive expression of the English commitment the creedal faith of the pre-divided Church. The identity of the English Protestant Church was not that of a new Church caused by Henry VIII, but rather that of the restored ancient Church of the first five centuries.</i><br /><br />I think it is often way-over-stated that the Articles are too difficult to understand and/or they relate mostly or only to the Papist/medieval doctrinal innovations. They are a concise (though not exhaustive) confession of the scriptural and early church faith as understood by Cranmer and the other reformers in England at that time. <br /><br />Fr. Hart: <br />I would rather say that the Articles inform the BCP liturgy (although there is a back and forth), rather than the other way around. I think the danger of misreading the liturgy (as to its meaning) rises in proportion to the greater affinity one has for a "Roman" view as opposed to a reformed-catholic theology. The Articles, properly read, guard one from that slide; especially in that they endorse specifically the Homily on Salvation (Justification) which bears directly on the Eucharist service. Gregory Dix, Anglican Benedictine priest and liturgical scholar and "no lover of the BCP... had to admit the excellence of its communion service as a statement of justification by faith."<br /><br />Thanks again for your thoughtful and helpful articles/discussions.Jack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66666056909033950902010-07-14T09:29:02.718-04:002010-07-14T09:29:02.718-04:00Nathan posited the hypothetical question,
If the...Nathan posited the hypothetical question, <br /><br /><i>If the 39 Articles had never been written, how would we define the Catholic faith?</i><br /><br />The answer is that we would do so by the same method that produced the Thirty-Nine Articles. The Articles themselves were written to emphasize or clarify issues of doctrine that needed the correction of Scripture as understood in Antiquity. In order for the Articles to relay their true and intended meaning, they must remain within the BCP, where liturgy helps explain them.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-39372191346992387702010-07-14T07:53:10.023-04:002010-07-14T07:53:10.023-04:00I had thought the word "Betrayed" was a ...I had thought the word "Betrayed" was a trifle strong until I read this paragraph from Bp Edwin Barnes on The Former Anglican:<br /><br />"What are the main elements of the Anglican Patrimony you would like the Ordinariates to preserve?"<br /><br />The holy man answers:<br /><br />"Our fathers in the faith spoke of “reserve” in matters of faith. That is, a sort of quiet and simple spirit in the best of Anglican use. It has seemed to me a religious voice, a tone, in keeping with our national character. The language of our Prayer Book which introduced the vernacular into our worship five centuries ago seems to catch something of this plain, undemonstrative but deeply felt religious sensibility. But in truth, I think we cannot discover our Patrimony until we see it in a completely Catholic context."<br /><br />This is the first time, to my knowledge, that anyone of that sect has ventured a definition of the "Anglican Patrimony." But this limp-wristed, pusilannimous bilge might as well be a description of Quakerism. I cannot imagine William Laud or Charles I losing their heads for an "undemonstrative but deeply felt religious sensibility." Nor can I conceive of the sacrifices of Samuel Seabury or Jackson Kemper for such a worthless substitute for Christianity.<br />If the "Anglican patrimony" is no more than Bp Barnes thinks it is, why would it require a special Ordinariate?<br /><br />The pro-papalist Former Anglicans cannot get their stories straight. On the one hand, they tell us, Anglicanism is a vile and horrid thing, originating in in Henry VII's sexual appetite and Zwinglian heresy. On the other hand, there is something lovely about it which justifies special consideration by the Petrine Successor. That is the unreconciled contradiction in their entire movement. <br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-17093500522012236832010-07-14T05:14:24.790-04:002010-07-14T05:14:24.790-04:00Another excellent article but with so many points ...Another excellent article but with so many points to ponder.<br /><br />As for England, well our brethren there will have a choice to make. While the offer from Rome has almost become the proverbial dead horse being beaten, it is one option. If the Continuum is going to play any role in England (and I think that is a pretty big if) it will likely be the ACC, as they have the only presence there. Some could of course do what the continuers did here and for a new jurisdiction, but as their own +Andrew pointed out there are enough sects already. The only other option is to stay put and accept the heterodoxy. <br /><br />I respectfully disagree with the way the continuum is defined here. I agree that there are two groupings, but I have a different idea of what constitutes that second grouping. I do not think of the TAC/ACA as any more of a continuing church than I do of various others that either have roots in St. Louis or have accepted the Affirmation at a later date. Part of this is because of their history predating 1977 and part of this is due to their crawl Romeward. While there will be some of ACA left when the move finally takes place, I do not think those remnants will have any better claim to the continuum than say the DHC. <br /><br />As I said at the start the Roman offer has been dissected and discussed about as much as it can be. The response from TAC/ACA to that offer is almost at that level. At some point we are going to have to realize that those who want to go will do so, and in doing so will cease to be Anglicans. Those that want to stay are going to stay, and they should be welcomed into the brotherhood that the continuum can and should be. In the mean time the big three and any smaller jurisdictions that are willing, need to sit down and talk about real unity. There will be hard subjects brought up, not everyone will come away happy, but hopefully everyone will walk in the same direction together.AFS1970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-27426504047930766622010-07-14T03:20:02.926-04:002010-07-14T03:20:02.926-04:00Perhaps this calls for a direct approach / stateme...Perhaps this calls for a direct approach / statement from the ACC both Internationally and more locally in England? If the ACC can offer 'another way' to (real) traditional Anglicans in the CofE then now is the time to start outlining the vision! Perhaps an invitation in the Church Times to an open forum or an article in a UK PBS publication would be a good place to start?<br /><br />AACCanterbury Anglicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16594180139267514819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-15777716129995827672010-07-14T02:50:48.009-04:002010-07-14T02:50:48.009-04:00First, as I am sure all knew, I meant to put a &qu...First, as I am sure all knew, I meant to put a "not" before "interested in becomeing Romans." Sorry.<br /><br />Secondly, Andrew, anyone who sees anything resembling the ministry of Peter as set forth in the New Testament in the current Roman leadership has been smoking something quite powerful and it is not incense. Father John's comments are entirely relevant and I am more than happy to second them.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-29326817096000704782010-07-14T02:45:54.118-04:002010-07-14T02:45:54.118-04:00If the 39 Articles had never been written, how wou...If the 39 Articles had never been written, how would we define the Catholic faith?<br /><br />Nathan<br />subtxt<br />musperiNathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11296779647932655590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-20853262411014002812010-07-14T00:55:01.683-04:002010-07-14T00:55:01.683-04:00Fr. John wrote:
The TAC, born in an unnecessary s...Fr. John wrote:<br /><br /><i>The TAC, born in an unnecessary schism, is tearing itself apart one more time in an effort to lead its laity into the tactical equivalent of the Alamo.</i><br /><br />Or, perhaps, the Little Big Horn. I think of Custer leading his men into the Medicine Tail Coulee shouting, "Take no prisoners!" The role was played by Richard Mulligan in <i>Little Big Man</i>, but the role was made for Hepworth.Fr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-57781293648539573452010-07-14T00:10:35.628-04:002010-07-14T00:10:35.628-04:00Very interesting post Fr. Hart... very interesting...Very interesting post Fr. Hart... very interesting. <br /><br />... and thanks.<br /><br />where does it all lead?<br /><br />JackJack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-53959969739695721352010-07-13T22:31:10.711-04:002010-07-13T22:31:10.711-04:00I loved the whole essay, but especially this sente...I loved the whole essay, but especially this sentence:<br /><br />"Now, however, the bishops of the American branch of the TAC, the Anglican Church in America (ACA) are faced with a very divided response among the people they had thought, until recently, they could simply herd into Roman Catholicism."<br /><br />That is surely the most stupendous feat of self-deception in the annals of stupidity.<br /><br />LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-82735813472132335132010-07-13T21:57:45.332-04:002010-07-13T21:57:45.332-04:00Very nicely put, Father Hart. It is a tragedy that...Very nicely put, Father Hart. It is a tragedy that more people don't see the Continuing Church for what it truly is: the only remaining vestige of Anglicanism. <br /><br />I had to chuckle about your reference to Ritual Notes as it brought back a funny memory. Earlier this year in my former parish, I was talking to a parishioner about a reference in RN to the proper way to carry a censer in procession, gently swinging due to the walking motion of the thurifer. Any swinging of the censer at this time was considered by RN to be "pretentious." My parishioner commented, "How bad do you have to get for Ritual Notes to think you are pretentious?"<br /><br />I will confess that I am still not a big fan of the 39 Articles, but I'm only 53 and there's still time for me to grow up like Father Wells! :-)The Shrinking Clerichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06762192435429027793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-49583013861714777762010-07-13T21:35:13.748-04:002010-07-13T21:35:13.748-04:00"To be blunt, they just don't count, anym..."To be blunt, they just don't count, anymore than breakaway sects ever have counted to the Church."<br /><br />Pot, meet kettle.<br /><br />+Andrew of Ebbsfleet had it right in his April pastoral letter when he wrote:<br /><br />"Whatever the result of the General Synod debate, the Holy Father's offer deserves to be considered in its own right. Whatever the result of the debate, those who cannot accept the ministry of Peter should not accept the Pope's offer. Amidst this, it is hard to see anything but a time of division, a 'parting of friends', though, thankfully, no one seems to be heading off to form or join anything new, or smaller: there are enough sects already."Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681296306358764468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-87738828945750468692010-07-13T20:35:50.261-04:002010-07-13T20:35:50.261-04:00The way I see it there are two choices. One may e...The way I see it there are two choices. One may enter the Roman Church under any circumstances at hand and join the civil war raging there, or one can join the Continuum. BTW, see my blog for an expansion of the topic concerning the homosexual dominated Roman Catholic seminaries entitled "Sitting in Satan's Lap.<br /><br />The TAC, born in an unnecessary schism, is tearing itself apart one more time in an effort to lead its laity into the tactical equivalent of the Alamo. What could they be thinking that would induce them to destroy a faithful remnant of Anglicanism in order to become the equivalent of a tiny squad of soldiers joining an already besieged garrison that has the options of capitulation, or of being overrun. <br /><br />The best result they can hope for, if they are successful in corporately becoming part of the Roman Church, is to spend their time trying to survive the endless leftist intrigues that the American Roman Catholic hierarchy will hatch to marginalize them and render them irrelevant in much the same way they have the Latin Rite parishes.<br /><br />We are the only honest game in town.Fr. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18097549748468739701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-11396428870994762412010-07-13T19:42:00.227-04:002010-07-13T19:42:00.227-04:00Altogether an excellent post, Father Hart, but the...Altogether an excellent post, Father Hart, but the TAC prelates had excellent examples for their belief that the Articles were truly Zwinglian or worse. Indeed both were very explicit in telling me just that. They were also entirely sure that the best way to maintain classical Anglicanism was to prefer all things Roman and papal to anything truly Anglican at all. The problem was that they had no Father Hart and might not have believed him if they did. They were that sure that they were entirely right and that anyone with a contrary opinion was a protestant heretic whom they would banish from the Continuum as quickly as possible.<br /><br />Had it not been for that and the even more tragic posturing and power grabbing, the petty jealousies and back stabbings, the Continuum might yet be united and several times larger than it is. But far too many were very rudely pushed into other jurisdictions who were as loyal or more to the Affirmation that the big three or into the REC which is now seriously flirting with ACNA - which I believe to be a serious mistake, perhaps even more serious that Bishop Cummings original departure from the American Church.<br /><br />Unfortunately none of us can change the past and few of us are willing face, acknowledge and attempt to correct our current failings. That means that we have to start from where we are now and the major necessity, as I see it, is that the bishops of the Continuum who intend to remain Anglican need to meet and reassure all those in the TAC that all will do as much as humanly and heavenly possible to care for those laity, deacons, priests and parishes of the TAC who are interested in becoming Romans. We need to all (and I do mean ALL) be in this together. That may result in the bruising of a few episcopal egos, but I hope that they accept that more easily than having to stand before God's throne of judgment and confess that they willfully failed His church. They don['t have to promise that they will do everything necessary, but only everything within their collective ability. It would be great to see Archbishop Haverland take the lead in this – and, perhaps, he already has, but if we truly love our Lord and Anglicanism, we can not fail these people.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.com