tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post2692327411583868208..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Clergy educationFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-707549763792765762007-07-18T17:19:00.000-04:002007-07-18T17:19:00.000-04:00Well......most men I see with M.Div degree's are n...Well......most men I see with M.Div degree's are not fit to be in ministry, but not all. I also know of many men who have no degree's and are the most Godly men i know. Go figure! <BR/> The Scriptures give us only character qualifications and a strong leaning on mentoring. We in the Church today have replaced the cardial for the cognitive and because of that, we suffer a dead Orthodoxy at worse, or an irrelavent ministry at best. I believe it drives many to the Charismatic groups to find what they call "LIFE". One baptist I know who attended the REC Seminary once said..."If it aint moving, its dead!'. <BR/>ConcernedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-88140142347565664192007-07-18T15:05:00.000-04:002007-07-18T15:05:00.000-04:00MDiv used to be a Bachelor's in Theology (normally...MDiv used to be a Bachelor's in Theology (normally granted only to those who already have another Bachelor's) Even that was held (at least in the US) by a minority of clergy prior to the Victorian period, and by a majority of them only from the late 19th Century. It seems to have been well into the twentieth century that such an academic degree became a near requirement. Were 18th and 19th century clergy less educated than those of today? Read any sermons of the period? I've known seminary graduates who cannot even follow the content of some of those sermons. I knew a priest, a rather obsure back country vicar named Fr. Dan Goldsmith, who did have a university degree - in agriculture (!) but no theological degree. being ordained under the 'old man's canon'. This man was one of the wisest and holiest clergy I've known (he would have denied both, but they are true labels). I don't see that institutionalizing the academic route as nearly the only possible one has helped the Church in any way, though the institutions need to exist to train those called specifically to the more academic ministries.<BR/><BR/>edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-66829960559752945172007-07-18T06:35:00.000-04:002007-07-18T06:35:00.000-04:00I attended the REC Seminary in PA. It was good tea...I attended the REC Seminary in PA. It was good teaching but the clergy are "ONLY" clergy if they have a M.Div degree. Not much real focus on Character, although they said they cared about it. Why do so many Churches require an M.Div as the definition of a minister? When historically did that come about? And how relevant is it for us today?<BR/> ConcernedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-91359630606220975752007-07-18T06:29:00.000-04:002007-07-18T06:29:00.000-04:00I am reminded of what Archbishop Michael Ramsey sa...I am reminded of what Archbishop Michael Ramsey said in his invaluable book "The Christian Priest Today":<BR/><BR/>"First, the priest is the teacher and preacher, and as such he is the man of theology. He is pledged to be a dedicated student of theology; and his study need not be vast in extent but it will be deep in its integrity, not in order that he may be erudite but in order that he may be simple."<BR/><BR/>The Church needs theologians, whose knowledge is not only deep but vast. But I would argue that the calling of the parish priest, while demanding a grasp of the fundamentals of theology, lies more in the other characteristics outlined by Ramsey -- being a man of reconciliation, a man of prayer and a man of the Eucharist.Albion Landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14423168351697120421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-30898240886374804082007-07-18T06:05:00.000-04:002007-07-18T06:05:00.000-04:00Ed: a man needs some booklearning to be a good pri...Ed: a man needs some booklearning to be a good priest. We are a 'people of the Book', and a priest must know what's in the Book and what (the Fathers say) it means. The question is how much the booklearning needs to be equated with the kind of booklearning (or pre-packaged photocopied excerpts learning) that goes on at contemporary universities. I think the booklearning bits of the course for clergy would ideally be rigorous in their content but lenient in their assessment. I've remembered Anglican clergy who must've got through the most basic of seminary courses (the ThL) on conceded passes. I've also known clergy with little more, if any, theological qualification than the ThL who have been men of deep learning (intelligent men who were voracious readers). The secret is not to insist too much on 'original' thought (which only the very smartest can do in such an ancient academic discipline, and therefore which most should not even think of doing), but to insist on understanding.<BR/><BR/>As to the other things: holiness, godliness--of course they are necessary. They are to be taught by the local bishop or priest with whom the man 'reads'--both taught and discerned, from the point of selection for training to the point of ordination and beyond.<BR/><BR/>Mr Anglican Deacon: unfortunately you describe a luxury. Imagine a 40-something man with wife, children and mortgage. Then imagine the difficulty he'll have relocating to seminary and trying to support his family. Then imagine him in Australia, with there won't be a Continuum seminary in the foreseeable future, so he'll have to move to the USA, where he probably won't be able to work (if seminary life made that possible), and with the prospect of returning home to non-stipendiary ministry. We need to make do with what we've got, or what we can put together. That's why, Mr Edmunds, we've got to set up something like the Scott School, but worldwide, so that the 'in community' bits can be done locally, but precious resources are not being wasted on duplication of effort. If God blesses us and wants us to continue, we'll eventually get back to an old system of diocesan or provincial seminaries (in a generation or two), but in the meantime we desperately need to get the next generation of priests trained both intellectually and personally, so that we have something on which to build.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-52269502566460462092007-07-17T15:40:00.000-04:002007-07-17T15:40:00.000-04:00I have some serious questions that I am not sure a...I have some serious questions that I am not sure are being asked about the formation of clergy. What does a man need to be a good priest? Is it primarily 'education'? Is it what one knows that makes one a shepherd of souls? Knowledge is certainly necesssary. The ignorance of some of the Pentecostal preachers I used to work with is a scandal, and the medieval church was often as bad. But is the academic model that has been standard of any more than marginal usefulness? I'm not sure of that. I think the treatment of theological education as primaruly academic became the major producer of the various revisionist heresies. Should the first question perhaps be one of how we bring men into the presence of Christ, and how we there lead them to seek to be channels of his loving grace? Is it perhaps that a priest is first of all a worshiper, secondly a lover of the people of God, and thirdly a teacher?<BR/><BR/>I ask these questions with the perception that we seem to be seeking ways to educate, but seem to lack a real and deep commitment to formation. I want truly godly priests - yes, saints - and though we will fall short of that, I think that needs to be the intent of every bit of clerical training.<BR/><BR/>edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-59190983273422473712007-07-17T12:04:00.000-04:002007-07-17T12:04:00.000-04:00The Diocese of the Mid-Atlantic States of the Angl...The Diocese of the Mid-Atlantic States of the Anglican Catholic Church became very conscious of this problem long ago: most of its postulants were/are older men, blessed with wives, kids, jobs, mortgages.... The old seminary model of three years’ full-time study in meditative rusticity was not an option for most of its postulants.<BR/><BR/>So the diocese authorized the creation, several years ago, of the Bishop Harry B. Scott III School of Theology. The school seems to be functioning quite successfully; several of its students have been ordained. <BR/><BR/>See: http://www.anglicancatholic.org/dmas/scottbroch.html<BR/><BR/>The school recently re-located from Richmond VA to its own new digs in Newport News, VA, by the way. (the web-site needs updating.)<BR/><BR/>The three-year Scott School program requires all students to live ‘in community’ at the school for at least two weeks each year, one week in the spring and one week in the fall. These residential weeks are heavy on academics and liturgical drill. The rest of the year the students occupy themselves with directed reading and paper-writing, under various clerical mentors.<BR/><BR/>New Testament Greek, by the way, is a required part of the curriculum.<BR/><BR/>Jeffrey Edmunds<BR/>St. Luke’s ACC<BR/>Fredericksburg, VA USAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-25224325579415542282007-07-17T06:23:00.000-04:002007-07-17T06:23:00.000-04:00I think that 'reading for orders' can be coupled w...I think that 'reading for orders' can be coupled with distance education--that is sort of what I was getting at in an earlier combox. I also think it's important the we (the Continuum) do it ourselves. I would hope that, even if their bishops can't receive communion at each other's celebrations of the Mass, the clergy of the four (yes, four) main branches of the Continuum should be able to provide sufficient generalised and specialised knowledge to staff a world-wide online theology faculty. Any man who shows particular academic promise could, after he is appropriately tested and found to have the level of maturity and orthodoxy required not to be easily led into error, be sent to a university to get an accredited degree.<BR/><BR/>I'm a bit worried about sending our chaps to Roman institutions, partly because we might lose them, partly because we do things differently, and things includes preaching and thinking. A month of Anglican reinculturation would not, in my opinion, be long enough, but I agree with Abu Daoud that such a subject would be necessary in some form.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the compulsory semester-long course on Deerfield Beach would need to be taught within each branch, as the content would be different in each. But I'm sure that there would be no shortage of clergy willing to take on that task. Oops! Mea culpa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-79237846200428414322007-07-16T13:54:00.000-04:002007-07-16T13:54:00.000-04:00"Perhaps the Province could come up with a list of..."Perhaps the Province could come up with a list of 20 or so universities or seminaries around the country where people could take most courses."<BR/><BR/>That's what the Diocese of the Holy Cross has on their website. Not a bad idea.J. Gordon Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941152529096287366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-4101531937172863152007-07-16T11:40:00.000-04:002007-07-16T11:40:00.000-04:00Having attended St. Joseph's, it should be added t...Having attended St. Joseph's, it should be added that there is more to the formation of clergy than the classroom. In reality, much time is spent in chapel, at other churches and in the general fellowship of brother clergy. <BR/><BR/>This interaction has proven invaluable during my ministry and could not be replicated through "distance" learning. While it may seem to be a viable compromise, the actual costs may be less than attractive when the ovarall impact, at the parishional level, is fully understood.<BR/><BR/>While Berkely is not an ideal location, (the Midwest would be much better, cost wise: perhaps Chicago,)the strength of its academic resources, coupled with the "world-class" city of San Francisco, parially outweigh the negatives.<BR/><BR/>The real challenge is properly funding our Continuing Faith clergy, both within and without the seminary. We are deluding ourselves if we believe otherwise.Anglican Priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16539370639167187227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-9267809997417791522007-07-16T11:18:00.000-04:002007-07-16T11:18:00.000-04:00P.S.I'm aware Latin is not Scripture's language, I...P.S.<BR/><BR/>I'm aware Latin is not Scripture's language, I just think Latin would be beneficial for reading some of the Fathers and medieval works. It is after all the language of the Western Church.<BR/><BR/>St. WormAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-73343301986676468752007-07-16T11:16:00.000-04:002007-07-16T11:16:00.000-04:00I'm an ACC communicant, and I think the Commission...I'm an ACC communicant, and I think the Commission of Ministry has an excellent academic plan for ministry. <BR/><BR/>My only gripe, and this is across the board, is that there's no requirement for Latin, Greek, and Hebrew (unless this has changed recently). I think these languages should be required, at least first year familiarity with all three, and a second year in any one of those languages, is a reasonable request. Just because we put a premium on Tradition doesn't diminish the need for priests to handle the Scriptures in their original language.<BR/><BR/>Just my .02<BR/><BR/>St. Worm<BR/>(http://mustytomeguild.blogspot.com)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-28865429539866399532007-07-16T10:39:00.000-04:002007-07-16T10:39:00.000-04:00I discuss the advantages and disadvantabes of semi...I discuss the advantages and disadvantabes of seminaries <A HREF="http://faithandgender.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/the-hand-on-the-cradle/" REL="nofollow">here</A>, and decide that the disadvantages significantly outweigh the advantages. You have identified additional disadvantages for prospective clergy from continuing jurisdictions, most of whose new clergy are not single, young men.<BR/><BR/>I'm interested that you did not mention distance learning. The technology for this has advanced remarkably in the past decade. It doesn't allow for the kinds of things face-to-face instruction over time allows, of course. But, still, for many foundational educational projects, it serves well.<BR/><BR/>If a man with family is going to move at all, it were better he moved to where he could minister in a parish, under the routine supervision, counsel, and discipleship of an experienced priest or bishop.Fr. Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05583524465037937508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-17288468250612417882007-07-16T09:36:00.000-04:002007-07-16T09:36:00.000-04:00Perhaps the Province could come up with a list of ...Perhaps the Province could come up with a list of 20 or so universities or seminaries around the country where people could take most courses. <BR/><BR/>I mean, I studied at a Roman Catholic U for my MA and my classes on John, OT, intro to ethics, Christology, even sacramental theology, and so on, are very suitable to an anglo-catholic. I did this while working full time at my day job, and studying at a fully-accredited and well-regarded university.<BR/><BR/>Then the folks in training could do a summer or a month-clong course on specifics of stuff like the Oxford Movement, St Louis, Anglican liturgics, and so on, that they would not get elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>All this while being guided by their bishop and staying, for the most part, in their home city with their jobs.<BR/><BR/>Just an idea.Abu Daoudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18399746942963002389noreply@blogger.com