tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post1073831011093944979..comments2024-03-24T15:19:06.377-04:00Comments on The Continuum: Atonement and TheosisFr. Robert Harthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-35564222154605290532018-06-15T02:33:28.722-04:002018-06-15T02:33:28.722-04:00Now there is an alternative to the big three tradi...Now there is an alternative to the big three traditional atonement theories, one that does not drive a wedge between church traditions. My free eBook “Achieving Atonement” presents a new atonement model that is biblical, ethical, reasonable, comprehensive, ecumenical, and avoids the problems of traditional atonement theories while retaining their truths. The book explains how God is achieving atonement and the place of Christ’s violent death on the cross. The book is 170 pages plus 98 pages Scripture Index. Various eReader formats are available from https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/838364. A PDF version with numbered pages may be downloaded from http://www.5icm.org.au/Resources/Achieving_Atonement_-_Derek_Thompson.pdf. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-4984746251887647492016-08-06T14:41:05.354-04:002016-08-06T14:41:05.354-04:00Any thoughts on Fr. Reardon's first book on At...Any thoughts on Fr. Reardon's first book on Atonement? I know it is the first of a series but would love to hear your thoughts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12177479069840419604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-70807335966133010722008-09-20T00:16:00.000-04:002008-09-20T00:16:00.000-04:00I have found two types of cradle Orthodox those wh...I have found two types of cradle Orthodox those who think that faith is inherited and those who with humility never feel like they have arrived at a perfect faith but continually seek to abide in Christ.<BR/><BR/>I don't see much difference between most conservative Anglicans I have met. I always worry about thinking I have arrived or that I can be sure I got it right (in becoming Orthodox). All my life I want to fear the Lord.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06569126566700113991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-74180598476032085342008-09-19T11:42:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:42:00.000-04:00I have noticed two kinds of Orthodox converts in t...I have noticed two kinds of Orthodox converts in the West: those that see everything in the Western churches as heretical, and those that see virtually nothing in the Western churches as heretical. <BR/><BR/>IMHO, neither are correct from a historical Orthodox point of view. To find the real differences, I suggest John Meyendorff's Byzantine Theology. His grasp of English is better than mine and he neither exaggerates or down plays the real, fundamental, historical differences between Latin and Greek theology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-40902314093974349522008-09-18T23:56:00.000-04:002008-09-18T23:56:00.000-04:00In defense of the Orthodox the division in Anglica...<I>In defense of the Orthodox the division in Anglicanism between the theological camps has made it difficult for outsiders to grasp just what an Anglican is.</I><BR/><BR/>That is very understandable. It may help you to understand us by reading the Affirmation of St. Louis (a sort of Continuing Anglican Church constitution), and here is a link.<BR/><BR/>http://www.anglicancatholic.org/main/who/stlouis.htmlFr. Robert Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05892141425033196616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-43434801839874105012008-09-18T23:32:00.000-04:002008-09-18T23:32:00.000-04:00I believe I can speak with some authority being a ...I believe I can speak with some authority being a convert to Orthodox Christianity. Many of us converts are looking for a definable distinction to explain our conversion to Orthodoxy from a more familiar Western tradition. <BR/><BR/>I see myself as being more like Fr. Patrick (who's books I love). I find that many of my fellow Orthodox are unfamiliar with him. I think Orthodoxy has more in common with Orthodox Anglicanism because they both seek to love all the Saints and not just the Western or Eastern Saints. I know there are still some hold outs in Orthodoxy who look for division and reasons for it over a fraternal relationship with our other Orthodox brethren. <BR/><BR/>In defense of the Orthodox the division in Anglicanism between the theological camps has made it difficult for outsiders to grasp just what an Anglican is.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06569126566700113991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-68923831953405235732008-09-18T21:57:00.000-04:002008-09-18T21:57:00.000-04:00Well put, Fr. Wells. I wish the connection between...Well put, Fr. Wells. I wish the connection between sanctification and theosis had occurred to me in my Presbyterian days; it would have made for some interesting Bible study conversations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-25874448810903431612008-09-18T19:29:00.000-04:002008-09-18T19:29:00.000-04:00Brian:I must acknowledge a dismal and abysmal igno...Brian:<BR/>I must acknowledge a dismal and abysmal ignorance of the "New Finnish" interpretations of Luther, although I can boast of having heard of it before. But I don't think the resemblance of EO theosis and Calvinistic sanctification/ glorificaton is all that complicated.<BR/>The heart of sanctification, according to the Westminister standards, is renewal of the Imago Dei in the redeemed. And lying in the background is the Reformed distinction between incommunicable and communicable attributes of God.<BR/>Those communicable attributes (such as holiness, love, etc) produce a GODLY (think about the staggering implications of that word!) person.<BR/>We frequently get our hackles up when theosis is presented in terms which sound new-agey or pantheistic. But that's not a fair presentation of the concept.<BR/>LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-65484626470221483692008-09-18T08:48:00.000-04:002008-09-18T08:48:00.000-04:00Father Wells' comment about "theologians of his il...Father Wells' comment about "theologians of his ilk have discovered that the EO theosis is remarkably similar to the Reformed sanctification-glorification" sounds a lot like the "New Finnish Interpretation of Luther," which emphasizes something very similar. I think this is an interesting field of (re)discovery and would like to learn more about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-33219628292017682122008-09-17T23:54:00.000-04:002008-09-17T23:54:00.000-04:00This is one of those many disputes among members o...This is one of those many disputes among members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, that are entirely misdirected when they become disoputes. In this, as in several other areas of argument, the concept of either/or is a guarantor that <I><B>both</B></I> sides will have inadequate and possibly heretical teaching. What both Scripture and the Fathers make clear is that it is rather a case of both/and, and that it is in the interaction of seemingly opposite views that we can come to a fuller understanding of God.<BR/><BR/>I, for one, am powerfully moved both by Western thinking on Atonement and by Eastern thinking on Theosis.<BR/><BR/>edpoetreaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613032927883843078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-80075334658981152452008-09-17T23:50:00.000-04:002008-09-17T23:50:00.000-04:00Let me be the third to add my "Amen" and sing it a...Let me be the third to add my "Amen" and sing it again. I would never claim to the sort of learning that Father Reardon has, but my own experience of reading both modern Orthodox theologians and the Greek fathers during my college years led me to believe that the doctrine which I found at the heart of the Anglican tradition was also that of the earliest fathers and the Orthodox Church.<BR/><BR/>But that was also of the days when Orthodox Christians who had no local Orthodox Church were told to go to the Episcopal Church. Unfortunately the apostasy of TEC has ended all of that. And worse, unless we can find within ourselves the resourses to persuade the primates and bishops of the Global South and Southern Cone that if there is any hope of restoring Anglicanism to its former reputation and credibility, it will be through their insisting both to their clients bishops and clergy in North America as well as to the Archbishops and bishops of the churches in the British Isles that nothing less that a full return to faith and practise of antiquity as expressed both by the canon of St Vincent of Lerins and that of Lancelot Andrewes is an absolute and bare minimum. In words heard at the GAFCON meeting, it may not be a sin to be a woman, but it is extremely sinful to attempt to add or subtract from "the apostles' doctrine and fellowship" by pretending to be able to do what they never did and would not have tolerated.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-5613562480192520042008-09-17T22:24:00.000-04:002008-09-17T22:24:00.000-04:00I agree. I have long been only negatively impress...I agree. I have long been only negatively impressed by EO apologists or converts who try to sell the idea that "Western theology is Aristotelian and forensic, whereas Eastern theology--the real stuff--is Platonic and mystical." Its easy to debunk the Aristotelian/Platonic dichotomy, but the forensic/mystical requires just a bit more learning. One has to come to grips with the fact that the Fathers of East and West alike were steeped in the Scriptures, which they took to be the infallible Word of God. The Fathers cannot be intelligently read without a deep familiarity with the Bible. (You have to know about Holinshed and Ovid to comprehend Shakespeare, right?)<BR/><BR/>I have recently profited greatly from a very short book by Thomas Oden, "The Justification Reader."<BR/>It is a long catena of quotes from the Fathers, both Eastern and Western, which sound like they were culled from the writings of Luther and Calvin. The "mystical/forensic" dichotomy is as modern as the branch theory!<BR/><BR/>Currently I am feasting on a splendid, really SPLENDID, book by Michael Horton, "Covenant and Salvation." Horton is a WTS-California professor, an Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals type. But he winds up this book with a chapter entitled "Justification and Theosis." I cannot wait to get to it. Theologians of his ilk have discovered that the EO theosis is remarkably similar to the Reformed sanctification-glorification. Maybe the EO's will read the Fathers again and discover what Oden has found about Justification.<BR/>LKWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18902745.post-32441790784583990072008-09-17T15:51:00.000-04:002008-09-17T15:51:00.000-04:00Thank you for this post. I have had a number of d...Thank you for this post. I have had a number of discussions with an Greek Orthodox friend recently on the topic of sin and atonement, and this says very well some of the things I have tried to convey. I particularly appreciate that you point out the falsehood of the 'wrathful God' straw man employed by many Eastern Orthodox polemicists.Paul Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06957187308526723554noreply@blogger.com